tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post1501395165868036970..comments2024-03-28T15:32:19.036-04:00Comments on Dungeon Fantastic: The Known Dragons of DF Fellower & Dragons in General (Part II)Peter Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-6690854351308957242018-01-12T13:52:16.176-05:002018-01-12T13:52:16.176-05:00"I should also point out that, thanks to Scry..."I should also point out that, thanks to Scry Gate, they have a very idea of where some gates go (and certain knowledge of one)."<br /><br />Does Scry Gate in your game let them know if a Gate is one-way or not? If not (as I suspect) is there spell to determine this?<br /><br />Like maybe History or Analyze Magic?evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-79633620487930368352018-01-12T06:35:25.885-05:002018-01-12T06:35:25.885-05:00Yeah, and I get it, too - which is why I'm try...Yeah, and I get it, too - which is why I'm trying to find ways to ensure what's "special" in the game doesn't mean "stuff to save for tomorrow +1 day."<br /><br />I should also point out that, thanks to <b>Scry Gate</b>, they have a very idea of where some gates go (and certain knowledge of one).Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-43746406662629876472018-01-12T01:47:07.834-05:002018-01-12T01:47:07.834-05:00Thumbs up!
I'm just trying to explain why (to...Thumbs up!<br /><br />I'm just trying to explain why (to me anyway) the PCs don't seem willing to just jump through a gate or go hying off and tackle a dragon. (Though honestly, get Vryce, a few tough guys, a cleric, and a mage and it's probably Dragon fight time, I mean dude has Gram for crying out loud!)evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-53619744399362172142018-01-11T22:32:51.823-05:002018-01-11T22:32:51.823-05:00All I can say at this point, without giving anythi...All I can say at this point, without giving anything away, is heh. You might think that.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-51177366242748854492018-01-11T20:46:25.475-05:002018-01-11T20:46:25.475-05:00"As I see it, it's not actually any diffe..."As I see it, it's not actually any different at all than any other new part of the dungeon."<br /><br />Has the dungeon itself been touted as "potentially one-way"? See, every gate is potentially one way. Sure... some corridors, rooms, and doors are one way, this has been established. But they /have/ to go there.<br /><br />They have to go into the dungeon. The gates, not so much. And that's pretty much the difference as far as I can tell.<br /><br />So when presented with "Go into a probably one-way gate that we can't even see what's one foot into it or down this corridor that we can at least see to the edge of our torchlight..." I can totally understand their chose.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-28776231293550281472018-01-11T13:38:42.496-05:002018-01-11T13:38:42.496-05:00The thing is, you're retroactively defining &q...The thing is, you're retroactively defining "boss encounter" in several cases because of casualties.<br /><br />The teleport trap? It was a potentially lethal trap. Is that a "boss encounter"? I don't think it meets the standard. It's a bunch of totally avoidable fodder monsters that weren't avoided because the PCs did a really odd thing coupled without basic precautions. Had they just put <b>Levitate</b> on all the PCs, it would have just been a humorous end to Galen's hobgoblin army.<br /><br />The lizard man fight? I'd call that worthy. I still maintain that was a totally winnable fight, it's just that the PCs made some terrible tactical choices. The same group, getting to do that fight over again, would probably win the fight with some minor losses.<br /><br />The others? Some were bosses, some were worthy, much of the volume of monsters in the others were fodder. But I probably don't define "boss fight" the way you are. For example, to me the "Prison level" is an area with a mix of easy, medium, and potentially hard encounters - and some potential allies (that the PCs killed for their loot). It's not a "boss" anything, anymore than the level with the Lord of Spite is a "boss encounter." But I'd put the spectre as a boss monster - it was single-handedly capable of wiping out the entire party and almost did so.<br /><br />Plus a good example of a fight against weak foes going wrong is the gnoll fight - the PCs had to use a Wish to escape from foes with the same stats as ones they'd mopped the floor with back in the earliest sessions. A good example of a worthy fight going badly is the demon-ape fight. The Sterick fight was a classic "boss encounter" gone horribly wrong, partly from luck but also from the classic "let's half of us follow one plan, the other half follow a totally different one" error.<br /><br />"<i>And really, with gates being touted as possible one-way affairs, I'd be damned hesitant to go into one. Zero intel situations are a bad thing to walk into /with no way out/.</i>"<br /><br />Oh sure, I understand their thinking. And they are indeed welcome to not go into gates until they can be assured they can come back, and have all the possible intel on the situation, and so on. Or they can go in, risk their resources and lives, and potentially come out with amazing loot. As I see it, it's not actually <i>any different at all</i> than <i>any other new part of the dungeon.</i> You don't know what's there, you don't know if you can make it out, you don't know if it's one-way, you don't know what you'll get. You just know the survivors, if they identify the chances when they see them, could potentially be rich. And the players could have a lot of fun. So in a way, it's just <i>odd</i> to say, "I'd wander around a megadungeon with a demon lord stomping around and walk into rooms with unknown monsters for unknown risk for unknown loot, but go into a gate without knowing what's beyond? No way!" Demonstrably, two of the gate destinations are safer than the areas they connect to in the actual dungeon.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-38069063634798453322018-01-11T02:53:32.143-05:002018-01-11T02:53:32.143-05:00However it's still a matter of perceptive pote...However it's still a matter of perceptive potential TPK, and Dragons top that list...<br /><br /><br />Though if we just want to go by "monster that killed the most" (and include NPCs) we'd put "Teleport Trap" at the top of the list. Dropping the full party into the drink killed 19 people in one go (16 NPCs and 3 PCs). I'd argue that was pretty much a "Boss Encounter".<br /><br />However if we don't count NPCs...<br /><br />It's a tie between Baron Sterick the Red with 9 kills under his belt (5 PCs and 4 NPCs) and the Undead Lizardmen under the Cold Fens with 7 kills (5 PCs and 2 NPCs), both of which were clearly Boss Encounters, one which took two goes (and technically the Undead Lizards are still down there, so neither Boss Encounter was a 'one go affair').<br /><br />I don't know, your Boss Fights tend to end with half the crew dead or dying (eh, like 50% of them)... which means pretty much everyone looks at the odds and has to ask themselves, "Is this Boss Fight my day to die?".<br /><br />Whereas the weird kills (Teleport TPK, throttlers, Dryst's 'friendly' fire, etc) just come out of nowhere and can't actually be evaluated that way.<br /><br />Lastly they've taken, what, two runs at Durak (Durak, Durak, Durak) and have failed both times (but oddly, no deaths to The Lord of Spite) so they might just figure some big dragon down even lower should really not be messed with.<br /><br />And really, with gates being touted as possible one-way affairs, I'd be damned hesitant to go into one. Zero intel situations are a bad thing to walk into /with no way out/.<br /><br /><br />But really, the group has an decent list of Boss Fights under their belt (or maybe they just look like Boss Fights from this side of the screen):<br /><br />Dragon<br />Prison level<br />Lizardmen and Newt Throneroom fight<br />Baron Sterik<br />The Mummy<br />7 Demons From beyond The Stars (if this isn't a boss Fight?)<br /><br />Mmm... I can't think of anymore.<br /><br />And really, I am down right surprised they've never geared up and gone after Mungo and the trolls.<br /><br />evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-47049243182915158102018-01-10T21:25:24.370-05:002018-01-10T21:25:24.370-05:00@evileeyore: One of my players did do a treasure a...@evileeyore: One of my players did do a <a href="http://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.com/2017/12/how-much-treasure-one-of-my-players.html" rel="nofollow">treasure analysis</a>, although it doesn't pull things out monster by monster. I'm not sure it matters if I do one or not - it's not my perception of treasure, or even the reality of treasure, but the player's perception of treasure that matters.<br /><br />@Martin: That's true, but the death list has folks killed by everything from unnumbered fodder to worthy foes to epic boss monsters, yet not one killed by a dragon. Or killed by going through a gate.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-56723115602273530312018-01-10T17:31:08.044-05:002018-01-10T17:31:08.044-05:00Random goblins have not crippled your group, bosse...Random goblins have not crippled your group, bosses have done so at least once, and came close multiple times.martinlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046036634336503492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-35590482221655508982018-01-10T14:26:17.153-05:002018-01-10T14:26:17.153-05:00Also, you might want to check and see where the ri...Also, you might want to check and see where the richest hauls have come from and how dangerous they were (or rather if possible, evaluate how dangerous they would have been with completely average rolls, if possible?).<br /><br />I seem to recall some of the best hauls the group has gotten have come from relatively weak foes (or just from tricky traps and puzzles). Yes, some great hauls have come off tough (and deadly) foes (like the Dragon), but it might be useful to evaluate the hauls on a whole.<br /><br />If the dragon fight wasn't that spectacular (compared to some of the spectacular and far less challenging encounters) then that might be where the problem lay.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-72587282531157007852018-01-10T14:22:06.591-05:002018-01-10T14:22:06.591-05:00/raised eyebrow
There is a vast difference in pot.../raised eyebrow<br /><br />There is a vast difference in potentialities there Peter.<br /><br />On one hand the Giant Rat requires good rolls itself and bad rolls from all the PCs to TPK the group. With a Dragon, to /avoid/ a TPK, this needs to reversed.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-43837948825071775712018-01-10T14:16:24.833-05:002018-01-10T14:16:24.833-05:00In one campaign I ran a million or so years ago, D...In one campaign I ran a million or so years ago, Dragons didn't reproduce normally. They were a curse, Greed. A greedy enough individual, one who amassed the most fabulous of wealth /and/ had acquired some unique, potent artifact of magical power /and. refused to share or use the wealth (and artifact) to help others /could/ become a Dragon.<br /><br />Thus in this game, all Dragons had at least one unique, potent, magical artifact.<br /><br />I think you however have already put in evidence that Dragons have young? So maybe it takes those things above to become more powerful for Dragons (I mean the first did have Gram!).evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-17269069044450698742018-01-10T13:56:48.378-05:002018-01-10T13:56:48.378-05:00You might be right, but if even a dirt-poor giant ...You might be right, but if even a dirt-poor giant rat, random goblin, or treasure-free ooze can kill a PC or TPK the group with the right rolls, why is a massively richer potential TPK something to avoid?Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-29894036949302697062018-01-10T13:55:09.912-05:002018-01-10T13:55:09.912-05:00My gates do all lead to fantastic locations - so f...My gates do all lead to fantastic locations - so far, the PCs know about one of them being a silly place, one being an air realm with a flying castle, one to a lost jungle city (which they've been to, and really want to go to again), one leading to a "tavern level," and more. So they're already unique places.<br /><br />I'll have to see about the XP award - if every time the PCs go into a new gate, they walk out with 2 xp for the session no matter what, plus up to 4 for treasure - that's not small. That's a 20% increase in XP with a group that treasures each one. It might sound like nothing, but be something to the people who'll experience it.<br /><br />Assuring a unique item is interesting, but I'm not sure I want to commit to "all dragons have a unique treasure." It's an interesting idea though.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-17394395166462021222018-01-09T09:20:48.817-05:002018-01-09T09:20:48.817-05:00I think you've identified the problem correctl...I think you've identified the problem correctly, but I'm less sure of the solutions. Your groups is actually pretty aggressive, so if big dragons are a serious TPK risk they probably won't bite for an extra 2 points and some shinies.<br /><br />This is a core problem with any gaming that tries to faithfully replicate cool stories where someone succeeds despite steep odds. For it to work in gaming, either the odds aren't really steep, or the majority of PCs are going to fail.<br /><br />If you want dragons that are so powerful that they pose a large risk of TPK for the delvers, sensible delvers will stay away regardless of the reward. Less sensible ones will die off fairly quickly when they get access to dragons.<br /><br />I'm not sure you *can* have OSR style deadliness without this problem cropping up again and again.martinlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046036634336503492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-28010672843647108762018-01-09T05:33:26.259-05:002018-01-09T05:33:26.259-05:00Commonality could make them mundane, but you can j...Commonality could make them mundane, but you can just amplify their uniqueness to address that.<br /><br />Ensure all gates lead to truly mysterious and fantastical locale, often very different from whats on the other side. Make sure dragons always have at least one "rule breaking" and unique item in their hoard. You might run into them frequently, but they're always something different and unknowable - its a mystery of what new things you can obtain that you could never find anywhere else. Even if they're not "useful" to you now, they're always new and interesting.<br /><br />Rewards only encourage when those rewards are meaningful. Eventually someone will run the numbers or balance the risks against them and find those rewards lacking. They need to be enticing to remain a reward, but if you're using fixed rewards, you always know what to expect from entering into it. Whilst if you make gates/dragons common, but always providing something possibly very useful in their uniqueness, then that reward is never known, its a gamble - and one that could pay off massively. Much more appealing that an XP incentive imo.PseudoFentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14054154200055912286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-63079823658155821382018-01-09T02:22:55.605-05:002018-01-09T02:22:55.605-05:00I think the reward angle is far, far better than m...I think the reward angle is far, far better than making them common. Commonality destroys the mystique.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.com