tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post4871561250973173093..comments2024-03-27T22:37:01.796-04:00Comments on Dungeon Fantastic: Alternate Feint for GURPSPeter Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-51455597324937908532016-06-16T13:20:49.380-04:002016-06-16T13:20:49.380-04:00I know the feeling on learning your own rules. I ...I know the feeling on learning your own rules. I had a player say he actually used some elements of my Shield rules I wrote a year ago and I had to go confirm I even wrote that.<br /><br />Something about "writing lots of rules, but using only some" ;)<br /><br />I suppose Feint is a mechanic for those non-feints; I suppose I got way too focused on the word rather than the spirit of said word today.<br /><br />What about - and this is off the cuff here - making it an element of your attack roll? MoS between your attack and your skill divided by some...factor, like 4 or whatever. They take this to their defense. I'd have to do some mathing or suchlike but there's an idea.MEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08086901374821838288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-21832569030623212132016-06-16T13:13:10.012-04:002016-06-16T13:13:10.012-04:00That might work, although you'd have to figure...That might work, although you'd have to figure out rules for Critical Success and Critical Failure in Quick Contests. With one exception (resisted spells), I can't think of any that have critical success matter. You'd need to deal with:<br /><br />Attacker critically succeeds - does this mean it works automatically? If the defender rolls anyway, does a critical success counter this or does margin of victory still matter? What about critical by the defender even when terribly overmatched (I have Rapier-20, your best combat skill is Rapier-10, I roll a 7 for a margin of 13, you roll a 4 for a margin of 6 but a critical success)? Lots to resolve.<br /><br />FWIW, a critical success with a Resisted spell automatically overcomes resistance, but for the defender, only success or failure matters. IOW, a critical spell success bypasses the contest entirely, but doesn't factor in the contest per se.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-10900642214562683892016-06-16T13:03:02.568-04:002016-06-16T13:03:02.568-04:00Maybe one could do a flat penalty as an option if ...Maybe one could do a flat penalty as an option if there was a Critical Miss or Hit involved in the contest. Say the aforementioned -4. So with a regular success the Deceptive Attack is an extension of the feint and still quite "dainty", whereas occassionally all this maneuvering causes the opponent to be seriously faked out and they just invite a more powerful answer (commited, all out, rapid strike etc.).mhdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04809394741127675820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-13315591049672292302016-06-16T12:57:04.335-04:002016-06-16T12:57:04.335-04:00Actually, nevermind a bit of that - even Deceptive...Actually, nevermind a bit of that - even Deceptive Attack -1 will be -2, so it's -1 vs. -2 or more, so it's always better to DA if you can, but you still get -1 if you don't.<br /><br />Still learning my own alternative rule.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-48996106906431280272016-06-16T12:55:29.691-04:002016-06-16T12:55:29.691-04:00In a high-powered game, it'll fall off only if...In a high-powered game, it'll fall off only if you don't Deceptive Attack. So yes, if you Feint with Two-Handed Sword-27 and then do a stab to the eye (-9) on bad footing (-2) in poor light (-3) and roll against a 13, either the base rule (no benefit) or the alternative (-1, at least) isn't going to help you. Conversely, you can all but assure yourself of massive effect by maximizing DA at -7/-14, rolling your 13, and inflicting a -14 to defend.<br /><br />There is another downside to a minimum of -1: if you have only 2 points to spare for a Deceptive Attack, don't, you get that already. So I'd probably not use that myself because it'll slow things down as people think, "Hmmm, -4 for a -2 to him, which becomes -4, or effectively have +4 to hit with a -1 to him?" Feints are already sometimes useless despite succeeding - you Feint then roll a Critical Hit, or your opponent does All-Out Attack or turns his back on you, or loses the only defense he's got against your particular attack, or whatever. I've heard enough players lament a 3 after a solid Feint making the Feint "a waste." (Yes, some people complain about 3s, same people who complain that they tax lottery winnings probably.)<br /><br />I know a number of sword styles don't actually "fake attack" per se, and thus don't small-f feint. But Feint has to handle the ones that do faked attacks, cover head fakes and dekes, rhythm and subtle timing changes, wrestling hand-claps, non-injurious beats, etc. etc. that occur in some styles and basically all sports. That last bit is essential, as it's germane to Evade and setting up Slams (or avoiding them, with Defensive Feint, something I didn't address yet.)<br /><br />That came up a lot, incidentally, when I was researching <a href="http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/martialarts/" rel="nofollow">GURPS Martial Arts</a>. A fair number of people involved in styles that do progressive indirect attacks or just straight-up attacks said or wrote, basically, there is no such thing as a feint. Which might be true, from a narrow enough look at what GURPS is trying to simulate here.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-31384851673905978802016-06-16T12:31:04.440-04:002016-06-16T12:31:04.440-04:00Ah, I conflated that with it still needing to be a...Ah, I conflated that with it still needing to be a deceptive attack. -1, though, like a flat -4, gets much less useful in higher power campaigns. I don't typically run those, but I can see how the falloff in usefulness would be an issue.<br /><br />FWIW, a "feint" to me is nothing more than the Deceptive component of the Deceptive Attack. At least, that's my experience in smallsword fencing. We don't feint as a distinctive action, but rather launch an attack and change lines if the opponent parries before we're past our point of no return.<br /><br />I've fiddled with a few alternate mechanics to reflect that but nothing I ever published (it predates my blog, so probably in one of my binders somewhere). Maybe I should put it up as a me too post.MEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08086901374821838288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-73113976922443106772016-06-16T12:14:57.321-04:002016-06-16T12:14:57.321-04:00You'd either not want to play with this option...You'd either not want to play with this option at all, in that case, or inflict the -1 or higher penalty I suggested as a second alternative. In a game where Deceptive Attack is de rigeur, it's a potentially useful and easy alternative.<br /><br />Yet another alternative is, of course, a flat penalty - being Feinted is similar in severity to being Stunned and assign it a -4 penalty. With that option it'll be murder in a low-power campaign and pretty much useless in a high-power one.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-12343508500022024762016-06-16T12:09:30.822-04:002016-06-16T12:09:30.822-04:00Peter,
If I'm following (and I'm not runn...Peter,<br /><br />If I'm following (and I'm not running on much sleep, so I could be out of my mind), your feint's victory just doubles whatever following attack's ordinary penalty would be - and that's it.<br /><br />If that's the case, it severely limits your attack options, as not all attacks have a penalty to inflict on the enemy. That is, I couldn't Feint a guy and end him rightly with a Committed (Determined) with Extra Effort to get the Strong effect as well, or even just a regular attack, or whatever.<br /><br />That doesn't seem...right.MEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08086901374821838288noreply@blogger.com