tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post3669278826186030883..comments2024-03-28T15:32:19.036-04:00Comments on Dungeon Fantastic: Helping the DF ThiefPeter Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-69556009020598209192018-05-13T12:45:39.110-04:002018-05-13T12:45:39.110-04:00I'll allow it, per this post.
I'm not sur...I'll allow it, per <a href="https://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.com/2018/02/disappearing-for-df-thieves.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a>.<br /><br />I'm not sure how a whole party will disappear. There is always some guy who doesn't take Stealth or take it high enough. If I had a party of all guys in Thieves' Mail with Stealth-18, it might be more of an issue. But I haven't seen that yet.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-80920770673875341352018-05-09T08:17:36.382-04:002018-05-09T08:17:36.382-04:00Do you allow Thieves (or anyone really) to dissap...Do you allow Thieves (or anyone really) to dissappear at the start of combat or dissapear in combat if they reach concealment?<br /><br />I think it would give the thief something interesting to do. <br /><br />The only problem being that Stealth 18 isnt all that difficult for the Swashbuckler or Scout and I worry about them just doing it (almost) as well as the thief.<br /><br /><br />I also worry about whole parties dissapearing and derailing combat altogether. Unachimbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04873952842828774048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-87754312335392621002013-04-30T09:01:27.237-04:002013-04-30T09:01:27.237-04:00I've never played with a demolisher character ...I've never played with a demolisher character so I can't comment from actual experience.<br /><br />I suspect with how <i>I</i> GM, "I blow it up" wouldn't be the best idea for dealing with all obstacles. So that demolisher would need to up Lockpicking, too. Still, there is a lot of overlap on paper.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-75595523104706414042013-04-29T22:28:57.206-04:002013-04-29T22:28:57.206-04:00The demolisher works out better than the thief too...The demolisher works out better than the thief too right?<br /><br />Can do most of what thief does and with pick axe penchant can be pretty good with an axe.Unachimbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04873952842828774048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-18931235999024592552013-04-29T12:21:57.532-04:002013-04-29T12:21:57.532-04:00Yeah. Freeing up some extra points on the Thief is...Yeah. Freeing up some extra points on the Thief is one way I'd hope to help that, too. Perhaps it's worth allowing the Thief to start buying Power-Ups right away, or move some of the Power-Ups to the base template. It might help if they can start as a Weapon Master (even if only with knives), start with Backstabber (it's a +5 to their one combat role), or Trap Sense, or Nondetection. Even a level or two of those starts putting the thief into the realm of preternaturally good, which is great if coupled with real challenges. If it's -5 to spot a lot of traps or they're obscured from See Secrets with magic screening or meteoric elements, suddenly you're more useful. It might help to let them start that way.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-22934627995084487282013-04-29T12:06:55.072-04:002013-04-29T12:06:55.072-04:00It's got a niche, but it's one that has a ...It's got a niche, but it's one that has a lot of overlap and is easy to horn in on. It's also a noncombatant, which isn't really clear to everyone. You can't play a thief and want to be a fighter - your role is outside of the dungeon and between combats. And I think a thief really benefits from branching out more than the other templates do - a lens on a thief can really make you useful. You jsut need some cooperation from the GM, in putting in traps you'll want to disarm quietly or which require difficulty to get to, things you'll want to sneak up on and sneak away from without shooting them with arrows, things that are worth pickpocketing, and so on. If those things aren't there, why have a thief?<br /><br />I'm less concerned by the Scout, though, stamping on the thief's niche. I think the Scout, not surprisingly, makes a better Scout. They better - their niche is range and spotting things. It would be interesting, though, to offer the Scout with only a speciality of Trap detection, not removal - an optional speciality, perhaps - Traps (Detection)? They may be great at spotting them, but perhaps that's as far as they get. That would help out the Thief a lot, and yes, the Artificer, too, but that gets back to "traps you need to disarm quietly" and all of that.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-26453086932839422382013-04-29T10:52:58.115-04:002013-04-29T10:52:58.115-04:00The problem with the thief is that the artificer w...The problem with the thief is that the artificer will be better at general traps related things (only for detection is the thief better, and only with maxed trap sense), while if you need a stealther, you're usually better served with the scout, that can get in an advantageous potition and absolutely murder the opposition.<br /><br />I believe that the issue with the thief is that it's a jack of all (noncombat) trades, in a game where combat is very important. If we could get a better definition on what we want the thief to do, then it might be easier to find a solution. Just saying do D&D thief things is no help, because what thieves are expected to do has changed over time, and the main possibilities are already filled by other templates: Light weapon light armor combat specialist? Swashbuckler or Assassin. Trap master? Artificier. Nimble explorer that gets in and out undetected providing valuable intel? Swashbuckler (again) or Scout.<br /><br />TL:DR version, the Thief lacks a niche in a game with strong niche specialization.Kuroshimahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397927739954234653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-50008354437365226942013-04-28T07:40:13.181-04:002013-04-28T07:40:13.181-04:00Thief is a solid 50 point lens for a combat orient...Thief is a solid 50 point lens for a combat oriented template with lots of spare points that wears light armor. That is to say, swashbuckler. It doesn't synergize as well with knight; most of the others can't afford it in a 250 point game.<br /><br />If you have bonus points available, then Thief+(Scout/Swashbuckler/Barbarian/Wizard) are all viable in either direction.Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-19795364897259675292013-04-27T22:34:00.947-04:002013-04-27T22:34:00.947-04:00I don't use Wildcard skills, so I don't th...I don't use Wildcard skills, so I don't think I'd do that for one skill set when I do it for no others.<br /><br />What I think is, the thief is a fine template, but it needs to be a little tighter, and you really need to work what it's got. You can't be pretending to be a fighter, too, without adding a lens that <i>is</i> a fighter.<br /><br />But like I said, the GM has a role to play here too. If there aren't any locks you can't bypass without Lockpicking and no clever obstacles that can't be surmounted without the help of Perfect Balance, etc. then it doesn't matter what you do or don't do as a PC. Thief is a template that is very sensitive to getting undermined by the other templates.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-56502525792149235982013-04-27T22:17:28.615-04:002013-04-27T22:17:28.615-04:00Yeah, really. I've seen what 60 points will do...Yeah, really. I've seen what 60 points will do on the Knight, nevermind the Swashbuckler. Plus I think as a player, you end up having a lot more to do.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-44749243143805735732013-04-27T21:39:06.160-04:002013-04-27T21:39:06.160-04:00It sounds a bit like you guys are saying that Thie...It sounds a bit like you guys are saying that Thief is a lousy 250-point template but might be a pretty solid 50-point lens? Would it be worthwhile just to tell people "go buy 4 levels of Thief!" if you want those skills?Douglas Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292678529266123501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-25534396602650750702013-04-27T21:14:25.293-04:002013-04-27T21:14:25.293-04:00I heartily endorse Swashbuckler-Thief as the solut...I heartily endorse Swashbuckler-Thief as the solution to many of the thief's weaknesses. Swashbucklers tend to go to crazy town in combat if allowed to spend all 60 discretionary points on combat abilities, but they still have almost no out of combat utility. Giving them 50 points of out of combat abilities reigns in the combat craziness and gives them stuff to do out of combat.Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.com