tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post3759189159749250710..comments2024-03-28T15:32:19.036-04:00Comments on Dungeon Fantastic: The Appalling Survival Rate of Clerics in FelltowerPeter Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-37825921069206302742019-04-15T20:54:55.979-04:002019-04-15T20:54:55.979-04:00"...avoiding combat is probably the better so..."...avoiding combat is probably the better solution."<br /><br />/guytappingforehead.jpg<br /><br />The Ancient Martial Artist Master Confuse-ed say, "If you see combat coming in the dungeon, avoid it."evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-31840513381132514032019-04-15T19:31:02.511-04:002019-04-15T19:31:02.511-04:00It never seems like there is enough DR - too many ...It never seems like there is enough DR - too many things with high damage, secondary effects, and armor divisors are out there. Not getting hit in the first place is critical - you say a key, but I'd say the key. Still, avoiding combat is probably the better solution.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-2289258824079074482019-04-15T17:12:12.889-04:002019-04-15T17:12:12.889-04:00The clerics in my game definitely fit the holy wiz...The clerics in my game definitely fit the holy wizard niche, one deliberately, one because acolytes and the third spent everything on being a dark one good at healing. The acolyte hides behind the brute and the hired guard.Gwythainthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05184355400691527355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-66288260555065832882019-04-15T16:19:48.914-04:002019-04-15T16:19:48.914-04:00"I don't think in terms like "tank&q..."I don't think in terms like "tank" in that way."<br /><br />I may have mentioned "HP" but I when say 'tank' in a GURPS setting I mean "DR". Yeah, being able to take a few hits that penetrate is 110% necessary, but being able to shrug off 90% of the hit with DR is primary.<br /><br />Though yeah, nigh impenetrable defenses are also a key component.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-87191079430697893412019-04-15T15:53:19.069-04:002019-04-15T15:53:19.069-04:00What would you suggest in the way of bending thing...What would you suggest in the way of bending things?Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-2868782110663812992019-04-15T15:43:20.501-04:002019-04-15T15:43:20.501-04:00I think Clerics (and to a lesser extent Druids) ar...I think Clerics (and to a lesser extent Druids) are in the same boat as Thieves: they fulfill an important role in the old-school style gaming that DF models, but that role is not combat. <br /><br />However, DF makes combat much more elaborate and interesting than most old school games. GURPS just provides a whole lot more interesting options. So your PC is going to be on the sidelines actively avoiding the interesting thing a lot.<br /><br />Later DnD editions eventually amped up all of these archetypes significantly in combat. DF deliberately did not, but there is nothing stopping a DF GM from bending things to be more favorable if they prefer it.martinlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046036634336503492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-62270945006800730752019-04-15T14:27:53.051-04:002019-04-15T14:27:53.051-04:00Maybe they can hire Norman the Axe again to hold t...Maybe they can hire Norman the Axe again to hold the line instead of a cleric. He isn't dead yet after all.Kalzazzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17177712062675414026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-70418661029600275692019-04-15T13:10:46.804-04:002019-04-15T13:10:46.804-04:00I don't think in terms like "tank" i...I don't think in terms like "tank" in that way. Mostly because GURPS isn't really a system where you're fine until you run out of HP. You can be full up on HP and go to incapacitated or dead all at once. You can only "tank" by successfully defending, and I think that needs a different term than a video game term. I don't have one other than a non-pithy expression like "defensively sound."<br /><br />You're still shockingly vulnerable to being swamped by attacks, taken out by a critical, or just worn down by lacking enough stats and skills to face anything above fodder-level . . . and if you do get hit a couple of times, you're risking what's probably the only cleric to do it. If you've got multiples, maybe it's okay, but honestly I'd say get a fighter-type or an NPC hireling fighter-type. That's what they're for.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-41814787852300694332019-04-15T10:39:52.501-04:002019-04-15T10:39:52.501-04:00"A putative Denizens: Clerics would have temp..."A putative Denizens: Clerics would have templates like that."<br /><br />I've considered it... I've got some ideas for Clerics and a few Template tweaks are among them... it's just that's all I've got. A few things. Not even a third of the material of a proper Denizens book.<br /><br />"Without any of higher skill or ST or Weapon Master/TBAM/Extra Attack, I feel like you're a tertiary fighter at best."<br /><br />Without /any/ of it, sure. My goal was to get their defenses up, step them up from "tertiary" to "second string tank"... which is what my Players see Clerics as anyway (disregarding the Striker Cleric in D&D). Get the Cleric just 'tanky' enough to handle being an anchor point on the line, not a pivot point. A wing, not the pointy center of the wedge.<br /><br />And bumping ST up to 14, HT up to 14 and with decent armor they can tank some hits.<br /><br />Or go the DX route. I had one PC that went DX 14 and Combat Reflexes out the gate. He raised HT to 14 through play and had a solid set of 'Shield based' defenses (Dodge 12* versus people facing him, 14 Parry, 14 Block). His "tankyness" was pretty subpar, but he steadily worked on that as he went along (as well as spells and such) and was was a decent second string fighter by the time he died (second string caster as well, his spells were mostly just heals with a few buffs, but he struggled with affording the FP on the buffs). He didn't have the damage output, but he could tank well and hold the line.<br /><br /><br />* Encumbrance penalty.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-89351850643535608652019-04-15T09:45:32.427-04:002019-04-15T09:45:32.427-04:00Against strikes from the front, yes. But it's ...Against strikes from the front, yes. But it's useful for <i>everyone</i> . . . I think clerics are still very vulnerable compared to how people expect to use them.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-39735546919590429262019-04-15T09:44:26.104-04:002019-04-15T09:44:26.104-04:00A putative Denizens: Clerics would have templates ...A putative Denizens: Clerics would have templates like that.<br /><br />I'm still not sure you get to be a very effective fighter. I feel that without Weapon Master/TBAM/Extra Attack, you're always a secondary combatant even with higher skill and ST. Without any of higher skill or ST or Weapon Master/TBAM/Extra Attack, I feel like you're a tertiary fighter at best.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-71003208447322645732019-04-15T09:42:33.612-04:002019-04-15T09:42:33.612-04:00True. Given the 100% death rate of clerics, though...True. Given the 100% death rate of clerics, though, I'm not sure I have as much as I'd like!Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-28735985762711383652019-04-15T06:41:42.643-04:002019-04-15T06:41:42.643-04:00D&D clerics are rather more like Holy Warriors...D&D clerics are rather more like Holy Warriors who go heavy on certain kinds of Holy Might powers than like the DF / DFRPG clerics. DF clerics are more like the alternative divine spellcasters that show up in Pathfinder (I forget the name - but they're basically holy wizards).<br /><br />Given the roots of the GURPS spellcasting system, the fact that DF / DFRPG clerics have ended up as holy wizards is unsurprising. Trying to be holy wizards and D&D clerics at the same time just didn't work.Emily Smirlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12855334946339324522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-66361009460554957392019-04-14T22:25:24.796-04:002019-04-14T22:25:24.796-04:00Shield is particularly effective at keeping a cler...Shield is particularly effective at keeping a cleric aliveUnachimbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04873952842828774048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-74666223150656869842019-04-14T20:55:48.299-04:002019-04-14T20:55:48.299-04:00I tell my Players who want to go Cleric to make a ...I tell my Players who want to go Cleric to make a choice, Casting or Fighting. Pick one, make the other strongly secondary. I even allow the "Fighting Clerics" to reduce their points in spells (by half) to increase their ST, HT, HP, or weapon skills if they want to, and add Combat Reflexes to the Cleric Advantage list.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-79136794796771341432019-04-14T20:33:03.495-04:002019-04-14T20:33:03.495-04:00Psycho Dave: “Clerics are the red shirts of the D&...Psycho Dave: “Clerics are the red shirts of the D&D system. Always have been.”Charles Saegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368131505593336249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-55229932072550096512019-04-14T19:58:41.055-04:002019-04-14T19:58:41.055-04:00Some advice on 'Being a Useful Contributive an...Some advice on 'Being a Useful Contributive and Not Dead' cleric would be a helpful follow up postKalzazzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17177712062675414026noreply@blogger.com