tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post5786756627531946019..comments2024-03-27T22:37:01.796-04:00Comments on Dungeon Fantastic: Never trust a dungeon-dwellerPeter Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-15658585571735809112013-04-11T09:15:56.022-04:002013-04-11T09:15:56.022-04:00Sure, but it's got a lot of downsides:
- will...Sure, but it's got a lot of downsides:<br /><br />- willing subject, who is bound <i>permanently</i> to the oath, barring another high PI- spell or a critical success trying to break it.<br /><br />- a cleric with PI3<br /><br />- a cleric with PI3 who wants to take this spell<br /><br />So it's not likely to be a common use spell. Plus a dungeon dweller would have to trust the PCs to let them cast a spell on them, speak the oath, and then trust them to take the oath, too. And it's foolproof only if all the PCs and all the NPCs take it. It's not as simple as it seems, but it <i>is</i> indeed available if they really want it.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-24046806827921264702013-04-10T23:05:07.354-04:002013-04-10T23:05:07.354-04:00Isn't it the function of the Oath spell to be ...Isn't it the function of the Oath spell to be "magical honor"? Being clerical, PI3, and 4 FP should make it easily accessible. William Knowleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07075848234082280333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-22719602753814255392013-04-10T20:59:40.820-04:002013-04-10T20:59:40.820-04:00The information trade is a good idea, and if it ha...The information trade is a good idea, and if it happens once, they'll be willing to try it again even if they expect to fight after.<br /><br />They're pretty good about going for prisoners for information, so why not negotiation? I need to make for more knowledgeable encounters as much as anything else.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-71298819680756978602013-04-10T18:01:39.228-04:002013-04-10T18:01:39.228-04:00I try to have all the intelligent monsters who are...I try to have all the intelligent monsters who are at all willing to negotiate have some information they are willing to put on the table. That way, the PCs can benefit from talking, even if they are back-stabbed later. I make notes of what conditions they might exploit and what form their betrayals might take. <br /><br />For example, some kobolds who had been mostly slaughtered were willing to give up treasure, even helping to load it into a wagon, and give information about the area, so long as the party promised not to return to their lair. They would also provide a guide to help find specific other lairs. They did not, however, provide complete information about other potential enemies, and warned some of these enemies about the party. They know they can't go toe to toe with the PCs, but they will send them in over their head. Some gnolls are willing to rescue the PCs if they are in a fight with a particular enemy of the gnoll band, but will attack otherwise. Whether they appear as allies or enemies is mostly geographic.<br /><br />I try to keep the balance by giving the carrot first, then hiding the stick as much as possible, so that the party is asking themselves, "who just hit me?" I have my monsters grow increasingly respectful of the party after each encounter. Dammannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02740276687628872739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-45415204910707189032013-04-10T17:48:14.283-04:002013-04-10T17:48:14.283-04:00I wouldn't want to magically enforce agreement...I wouldn't want to magically enforce agreements. The players have been pretty scrupulous about honoring the letter (if not the actual intent) of what they agree to. It's just that they're rightly suspicious of the folks they meet.<br /><br />The really should have seen the Choke brothers as a joke about them being backstabbing stranglers though. The gnome actually had a plausible story.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-29444590389710611732013-04-10T15:18:52.850-04:002013-04-10T15:18:52.850-04:00Your fourth to last paragraph hits the core issue,...Your fourth to last paragraph hits the core issue, I think. In RL, negotiation is so often better than force because using force is usually both more costly and riskier than violence. (This is a massive oversimplification of RL, of course.) In DF, the opposite is true. In crawl RPGs, lost negotiations are often not fatal, while lost battles often are. Most crawl-type RPGs (including DF) compensate for the latter by making violence unrealistically survivable, but do not cook the odds in negotiation. So in many players' experience, negotiation is risky as hell, while violence is pretty reliable. <br />Now this means that certain fun plots just don't work very well in crawl RPGs, unless you cook the books. Maybe even overcook the books. If you make it abundantly clear that the cost+risk of negotiating with someone is less than the cost of battling them, negotiation might occur. IME, this usually happens with stuff that can obviously smear the PCs, but your suggestion that certain groups might be KNOWN to be trustworthy works too. (They might not be nice, but if they honor the letter and spirit of agreements the PCs might trust them. If they just honor the letter the PCs will probably prefer violence to lawyering.) As long as this isn't abused (that is to say, the PCs tests/knowledge show the NPCs to be trustworthy and they aren't), you might be able to convince players to deal with those.<br />One other thing I have considered is “magical honor.” Essentially there is some moderately expensive item or spell that magically enforces contract terms if both parties willingly agree. This will somewhat mess up worldbuilding (if you care about that in DF), but it makes negotiation a “safe” option again. This doesn’t allow for much backstabbing (or if it does, it leads right back to paranoia), but it can allow for negotiation to take a role in the crawl again.<br />martinlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046036634336503492noreply@blogger.com