tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post6634980219718123082..comments2024-03-28T15:32:19.036-04:00Comments on Dungeon Fantastic: FIRST ADVENTURES IN DUNGEONEERING (by Gary Gygax, USA) - Peter's CommentsPeter Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-1094328535871954002021-06-14T21:41:14.172-04:002021-06-14T21:41:14.172-04:00Absolutely. Most of this came from his imperfect a...Absolutely. Most of this came from his imperfect attempt to "control the brand," a concept he understood poorly if at all, and to stop one-man-press games from infringing on D&D, since those games typically ripped off 90% of the D&D engine and put a little specific flavor on top. "Standard" DnD, or AD&D, was also seen as crucial to broader adoption, again somewhat hazily. While "tournament D&D" and the hapless RPGA got a lot of press and puffery, actually turning this into a pillar of marketing strategy seemed to be beyond TSR. One thinks of Underwear Gnomes. <br />It was also an attempt to stop people calling Gygax with rules questions at 3 in the morning (a fairly common thing for 2-3 years after White Box).TDWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14649920118018537733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-79063565136218224442020-08-12T17:30:58.376-04:002020-08-12T17:30:58.376-04:00>> So it's "If I can manage" -...>> So it's "If I can manage" - Would this count as conditional action, or as taking the chance the spell goes off or is "lost" because of interruption? It sounds like the former. <<<br /><br />To me it sounds like the player is unsure of something his character would know: how much time the spell takes to cast compared to closing distance and the frequency of attacks (how long is a round). Since this appears to be OD&D played the combat system was barely described until Eldritch Wizardry introduced a revised, segmented initiative system. Before that it was "use Chainmail if you like" and consulting that said an exchange of blows takes a minute, give or take. So OD&D rounds were a minute long and consisted of one telling strike or one spell, but there was a LOT of leeway for the DM to allow more or less or assign risk to attempting too much...in which case the player is being wise by seeking the DM's opinion before stating he commits to an action (I heard Gary was very mean about tricking or trapping players that stated things rather than asked for clarification first).Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02295722892051701176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-60897957742762983392020-08-02T08:36:19.615-04:002020-08-02T08:36:19.615-04:00The kind who thinks "funny voices = roleplayi...The kind who thinks "funny voices = roleplaying".<br /><br />I have friends who refuse to roleplay because that's what their first D&D game was like, and they found it boring to the extreme.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-28106353750052969052020-08-01T20:05:28.272-04:002020-08-01T20:05:28.272-04:00I was more astonished by the “for it seemed” thank...I was more astonished by the “for it seemed” thank the party leader taking charge. Who talks like that? Vichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03268174879688628707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-34311773371203030372020-07-30T14:26:19.786-04:002020-07-30T14:26:19.786-04:00Fiddling is fine - but that same person wrote essa...Fiddling is fine - but that same person wrote essays (and had people write essays on his behalf) that said you had to follow the letter of the rules as written or be playing wrong. Not only wrong, but in a manner that was ultimately going to break the game and not be fun.<br /><br />I tinker constantly, even beyond what you guys see here, but I never say you can't do the same. That's what drives the annoyance over GG's attitude. He could change things, but if you did, you were wrong.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-29660271340300934052020-07-30T12:02:42.535-04:002020-07-30T12:02:42.535-04:00I can't speak to Gygax, but I do know that Arn...I can't speak to Gygax, but I do know that Arneson constantly fiddled with the rules of his wargames. However he would print them out so people could at least read them.<br /><br />I strongly suspect that was simply the way of it back then, and those two just carried forward with that SOP ever after.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-1991410694012050692020-07-29T19:23:39.755-04:002020-07-29T19:23:39.755-04:00Yeah, shockingly, Gary Gygax gave us rules to play...Yeah, shockingly, Gary Gygax gave us rules to play by that he didn't use himself. Heh.<br /><br />Lich Van Winkle put up a <a href="https://lichvanwinkle.blogspot.com/2020/06/gygax-was-too-creative-to-play-ad-by.html" rel="nofollow">whole post</a> about that.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-78622585540105654252020-07-29T16:26:20.482-04:002020-07-29T16:26:20.482-04:00Back in the day the concept of "Party Leader&...Back in the day the concept of "Party Leader" was basically like that. I remember suffering through a few groups with pushy individuals who demanded to be Party Leader and acted just like that, and when called on it, they pointed out the way examples were written in the books...<br /><br />I'm glad I haven't encountered that since the 80s. I stopped being as tolerant to that nonsense when I hit HS.evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-20580840301709965132020-07-29T10:39:11.829-04:002020-07-29T10:39:11.829-04:00Yes, I didn't mean to suggest I disagree, I th...Yes, I didn't mean to suggest I disagree, I think a telegraphed, escapable not-level-appropriate monster combat encounter is actually a level-appropriate non-combat encounter.<br /><br />As for the latter, I expect the answer depends on the exact question, and EGG's current thoughts on how to handle it: this description is not consistent with his comments on p. 71 of the 1e DMG.<br /><br />In any event I consider EGG to be an unreliable source of information about how he ran his own game. He is sufficiently inconsistent in describing his game that I expect he was inconsistent in running it, so the player may well have been trying to figure out if the attempt was even worth it - managing the DM, rather than the situation. <br /><br />If he was DMed by p. 71 DMG EGG, he would have been out of luck, because EGG would have allowed him to declare and start the action without letting him know that there wasn't enough time in the round to finish it.Beorichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05179135838206052198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-53278810463014016472020-07-29T07:40:00.143-04:002020-07-29T07:40:00.143-04:00Always interesting. But, man, that writing style.....Always interesting. But, man, that writing style... Wow. And not just the descriptions, but the alleged player quotes, such as, “There is no sense debating, let’s take the door to the west, for it seemed that there were more ruins above in that direction than in any other direction.“ Really? <br /><br />Other than that amusement, it is interesting—pretty abstract, player deaths are pretty casual, a ten-minute workday (they basically explored one room). <br />Vichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03268174879688628707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-91241637557113362022020-07-29T07:08:36.320-04:002020-07-29T07:08:36.320-04:00I figured someone would point to that end bit. It&...I figured someone would point to that end bit. It's true, but the core idea for me is that you have a chance - to win by fighting, to win by outwitting, to evade by running. Since your options on all three are really level dependent, ultimately, it's really saying that balanced decisions about appropriate encounters are part of the basic job of the GM. It's not a numeric system like you'd find later for BECMI D&D, but it's still help up as a basic element of dungeon design. It's still on the continuum of balancing risk and reward and capabilities of the PCs that ends in scaled encountered.<br /><br />It's beyond a question - the player has put the answer in the GM's hands. The GM rolls to see if it's yes or no. On a failure, would that have been a partially prepared spell that was interrupted or the magic-user doesn't even try?Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-47608935358784532612020-07-28T22:22:31.662-04:002020-07-28T22:22:31.662-04:00"In OD&D level 1 fighting men and level 1..."In OD&D level 1 fighting men and level 1 magic-users appear to use the same to hit tables. "Men attacking." AFAIK."<br /><br />Yeah... I'm mostly thinking of the Moldavy/BECM set (which followed the two "Basic" D&D books), that's old school to me. MUs with d4 HP and d4 damage... where (after just digging out my OD&D and leafing through it again)...<br /><br />There is only one difference between Fighting Men and Magic users at level 1, and that's 1 HP (depending on rolls). They do the same weapon damage, and I can't find any restrictions on mundane armor...<br /><br /><br />On Turns/Rounds/Steps. In "D&D: Men & Magic Volume 1 of 3 Booklets" they're still using Chainmail rules... which used Turns and Steps.<br /><br />The above example play has the Party firing and //charging//, which isn't allowed (for non-cavalry) in Chainmail, so either gary was playing very fast and loose with the rules, or he was using rules from some later OD&D (but probably not yet Basic D&D).<br /><br /><br />"I briefly had a search-thoroughness rule set up for DF..."<br /><br />That plagues me too. if I ever come up with something clever besaide just rolling on the Wandering Damage Chart*, I'll share.<br /><br />* Like a Wandering Monster Chart, but with zero chance of there ever being treasure. ZERO CHANCE. Only things that are either useless as treasure themselves (sublimating ectoplasmic slimes) or have such a terrible weight:value ratio that it will probably cost money to carry it out (generally if it drops below $2:1lb, unless my PCs have a cart and nothing but time and complete safety, they leave it).<br /><br />Yes, I have a Player who made a spreadsheet that has common item's weights and values pre figured for resale (40%) and if they're Cheap. Long Knives are surprisingly valuable...evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-71715463406069937742020-07-28T20:26:54.063-04:002020-07-28T20:26:54.063-04:00"This implies that you have located and numbe..."This implies that you have located and numbered monsters carefully, so that the players can usually fight them on even terms, outwit them, or run like hell,"<br /><br />The last part, "run like hell", suggests that he is not averse to too-difficult encounters, but that the setup allows (a) the party to guess they are outclassed, and (b) the party a reasonable chance of avoiding the encounter as a result.<br /><br />'So it's "If I can manage" - Would this count as conditional action, or as taking the chance the spell goes off or is "lost" because of interruption? It sounds like the former'<br /><br />I took this as a question to the DM as to whether there was enough time in the round to attempt this.Beorichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05179135838206052198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-41915075707302020462020-07-28T20:22:23.047-04:002020-07-28T20:22:23.047-04:00In OD&D level 1 fighting men and level 1 magic...In OD&D level 1 fighting men and level 1 magic-users appear to use the same to hit tables. "Men attacking." AFAIK.<br /><br />I mostly meant the wizard is very <i>busy</i>, not that he's acting very quickly except in the case of the hobgoblins. Moving, killing four opponents - even if helpless - and then getting into another action in one round (not turn, to be pedantic) is still quick.<br /><br />And I think on the elf, it's just thoroughness - there isn't any roll to make to find stuff in white box D&D, unless it's a secret door. So they're not fishing for bonuses but describing particular care in doing something.<br /><br />I briefly had a search-thoroughness rule set up for DF based on the time spent rules, but I abandoned it when the players always, always, always chose the maximum level of search. Literally 100% of the time. It doesn't help that they mostly seen wandering monsters as a fun distraction, and a potential source of "loot" in the form of monster parts, and not a cost. <i>That's</i> fishing for bonuses.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-78598166473386438942020-07-28T19:52:45.804-04:002020-07-28T19:52:45.804-04:00"- "Helmets off!" - Yes, you genera..."- "Helmets off!" - Yes, you generally need to take off headgear to listen at doors in my games, too. Although, everyone? Geez, guys, have some care. Keep a couple people ready to fight and everyone listen."<br /><br />Gary was soft on them. That's right, I said it, he was a big old "new school" softy... :P<br /><br /><br />"- That magic-user gets a lot done - casts Sleep (careful to avoid including his friends, not an issue in all versions of the spell), killing the priest from behind, and slitting the throats of four hobgoblins. He cuts those throats faster than a proverbial Klingon."<br /><br />Well, he does get a whole Turn (which is like one whole minute)... but mostly you're conflating a whole bunch of Turns...<br /><br />Remember it goes:<br />Turn 1: (3) Fighters loose arrows, drop bows, draw swords, & charge; MU casts Sleep; while two 'others' (a Fighter and Cleric) remain in the 'outer chamber' to watch the 'other door'.<br /><br />Turn 2: The next melee turn is spent by the party closing into a general melee between Evil Cleric and (3) Fighters, 4 hobs asleep. The two in the 'outer chamber' shout a warning “Beware! HOBGOBLINS! There are more who serve this priest…”<br /><br />Turn 3: MU and a fighter moves to door they entered; 2 fighters remain to fight the Evil Cleric; the 'moving' fighter continues into outer chamber to aid the Fighter and Cleric there against 6 hobs; MU starts slitting throats.<br /><br />Turn 4: MU sneaks up on EC and 'coup de grâces' him; hobs in the outer room kill the Cleric and Fighter.<br /><br />Turn 5: MU and Fighters pile out into the outer room to join the melee there (a Magic User getting into melee? Madness!)<br /><br /><br />"- "The priest’s quarters will be searched especially well by the elf." - I read that as "searched especially carefully and thoroughly" but it sounds like what one of my players love to say, "I (fill in the blank) with ease." "I slay it with ease." "I open it with ease." "I disarm it with ease." Etc."<br /><br />I read this as "The elf will spend as much time as needed to get all the bonuses possible"<br /><br /><br />"- Who the heck is shouting "BEWARE!" in this example? Am I misreading something? It sounds like a third party - not the PCs, not the priest's buddies (why would they yell that?)"<br /><br />Answered above.<br /><br /><br />OD&D was a different beast (as well as AD&D 1 & 2), back when Magic users were expected to swing daggers and get into the thick as well... and died in droves...evileeyorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08296632217198088455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-35416312635792830312020-07-28T18:17:46.103-04:002020-07-28T18:17:46.103-04:00Maybe it's because I use them myself, or that ...Maybe it's because I use them myself, or that I've played plenty of old adventures where maps were part of treasure. That didn't really jump out at me as anything really exciting.<br /><br />That and I didn't have anything to say except, see, you can give them a map as loot and they'll probably follow it. I once had an evil wizard who was trying to kill the PCs give them a map, and they followed it. This group is ~33% comprised of the same players, so the whole map thing didn't seem so exceptional. :)Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-68651761966053517332020-07-28T18:14:53.637-04:002020-07-28T18:14:53.637-04:00Thanks for linking those.
I have encounters that ...Thanks for linking those.<br /><br />I have encounters that require rolls to see if monsters are there, if they're awake or busy, and even how many are currently in position . . . but never to see how many exist. They all exist, it's just a question of the current state. The initial reading I had of the above was that it was how many exist, much as the number of coins was not determined until they were rolled.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-61279907398537549082020-07-28T17:21:28.512-04:002020-07-28T17:21:28.512-04:00One thing that you missed but stuck out to me is t...One thing that you missed but stuck out to me is that part of the treasure was a map. That's pretty common in OD&D, at least as written (I've never played OD&D), as 25% of rolls for magic items will be treasure maps. The destination of this map sounds like it's in the same dungeon, which is possible using the tables in the DMG but isn't the usual state (80% of treasure map destinations are outdoors by that table). It might have been the usual state of affairs in OD&D since there's no such table in Monsters & Treasure, or it might have been how Gygax ran things (he didn't seem to be that interested in outdoor adventures).Charles Saegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368131505593336249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-56894332967493817542020-07-28T16:35:48.403-04:002020-07-28T16:35:48.403-04:00I roll for number appearing in a room at time of e...I roll for number appearing in a room at time of encounter as well. A little more background on that: I have a maximum number appearing in the room, then roll the dice to see how many of them are actually there at that point. The others are out wandering. I make a Per check to see if the others show up as reinforcements at some point, though combats in GURPS are so short in time that it becomes a second encounter, albeit with the PCs down FP. It's not good to be an ogre under these circumstances, as their low Per (from low IQ) makes them more likely to be picked off in small groups. I have a couple of blog posts on this from way back:<br /><br />Reinforcements:<br /><br />https://gurpshexytime.blogspot.com/2019/06/hue-and-cry.html<br /><br />Random number of monsters:<br /><br />https://gurpshexytime.blogspot.com/2018/08/dynamic-dungeons.htmlCharles Saegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368131505593336249noreply@blogger.com