tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post6712110206645398518..comments2024-03-28T15:32:19.036-04:00Comments on Dungeon Fantastic: DF Magic Item abuse & possible solutionsPeter Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-70356892462076036712015-05-12T12:16:33.583-04:002015-05-12T12:16:33.583-04:00That's a very good question - but it's not...That's a very good question - but it's not a "hasn't happened" thing so much as a "coming right at us!" thing. We don't need to drive off the cliff to know the cliff is a problem. Besides, we've had similar items in play in previous games, where magic items were rare and were not available for purchase on any kind of reasonable timescale or price. So there is some experience about the issue.<br /><br />That's where this is - we know what's going to happen from prior experience, and we're messing around with ways to have something different, more palatable, happen, while still letting people benefit from dumping their savings into magic items.<br /><br />A hard cap is a good idea, too. We'll see what we end up with - the campaign took a detour into the Cold Fens right before these items started to arrive.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-50562542562322590642015-05-11T18:06:57.424-04:002015-05-11T18:06:57.424-04:00I want to ask, doesn't this violate one of you...I want to ask, doesn't this violate one of your rules? Don't make up rules to solve problems that haven't happened. If players are abusing power items then something needs to be done. If your players haven't abused power items and think that generally abusing rules is un-fun, you are not doing the right thing changing the rules for power items on the eventuality that one day they might throw out their social contract regarding mechanical abuses in your campaign.<br /><br />Why not put a hard cap on the number of concurrent uses? For Power N an item can maintain N effects but casting N+1 either automatically fails or negates one or all previous castings? Or be super strict and allow only one effect at a time per item regardless of Power level. Vryce wants to protect himself, fine. Vryce wants to protect Al Murik, fine. Vryce wants to protect both at the same time? Sorry, go contract a second item to give to Al, because each item can only maintain its effects on a single target at a time.<br /><br />I'd go with the single-simultaneous use option. I like magic items being awesome, but limited in scope, whereas casters are more versatile but not necessarily as powerful unless they've been in play a long, long time.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02295722892051701176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-88861556628494285672015-02-06T16:52:14.681-05:002015-02-06T16:52:14.681-05:00Not at the moment - there are none of these items ...Not at the moment - there are none of these items in play yet. So I don't know if it's going to be a PITA or not.<br /><br />I'm leaning towards a simpler, broader solution, though, at the moment.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-52734221567693686802015-02-06T09:30:35.450-05:002015-02-06T09:30:35.450-05:00Aren't you already tracking the penalty for cu...Aren't you already tracking the penalty for cumulative castings by the item? It's the same penalty, only applied to Power in addition to the item's skill.Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-63800028720351113802015-02-06T07:33:39.177-05:002015-02-06T07:33:39.177-05:00The LMZ/NMZ effects I know, but they bear repeatin...The LMZ/NMZ effects I know, but they bear repeating. Felltower has some NMZ zones but few LMZ areas, thanks to its background.<br /><br />I like the other options, though. That's good stuff.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-19530442222918070582015-02-06T04:10:41.507-05:002015-02-06T04:10:41.507-05:00I'd just underline the few edge cases of Power...I'd just underline the few edge cases of Power.<br /><br />Firstly, it only provides half in low-mana, I'd make this apply continuously (not just checked when cast and then assumed to be "always on") which means walking into a low-mana zone with the entire party buffed up from one item will suddenly cause the wearer to lose a lot of FP in one hit. This is a very nasty shock, that is hard to spot, but it does effectively discourage needless buffing! Or forces players to buy items with much higher Power levels.<br /><br />I'd also say that all spells cast on others are cleared after moving through a no-mana zone, which forces players to regroup and rebuff repeatedly. (I'd allow the item to preserve the spell on the wearer though, which is the primary purpose of any given magical item - fair is fair). Anything that causes players inconvenience generally discourages needless use I find. It also makes for some situations where its just impractical to rebuff everyone, forcing players to make do without the buffs rather than being reliant on them all the time.<br /><br />--<br /><br />Secondly, the wearer of the item must stay awake to keep the spell/s active. I'd say this includes unconsciousness and perhaps a few other affects that instil wild magic or delirium. I'd then say that its trivially easy for mages to detect spells cast from items, and its source. Allowing cunning magic using enemies (with time to assess the party) to focus fire on the wearer of the item and pull the plug on everyone else at the same time. (I'll admit that this will become steadily harder to achieve once they start distributing who carries what items, but still - its a flaw that can be exploited on occasion).<br /><br />--<br /><br />Otherwise, I'd just say that failures and crit failures shut the entire item down (and all the spells its already cast, obviously). A regular failure might just shut it down for seconds equal to margin of failure, basically just wiping active spells. Whilst a crit failure would shut it down for a day or something annoying. Perhaps combined with a -2 penalty per spell rather than -1.<br /><br />This 'solution' doesn't really curb the abuse too much, it mostly just drags out the time it takes to buff everyone (which might be important when combined with no-mana zones clearing spells cast on others). It also increases the odds of a critical failure when you have to restart the buffing process repeatedly, which has more lasting consequences.PseudoFentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14054154200055912286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-62476200111521257792015-02-05T21:56:52.310-05:002015-02-05T21:56:52.310-05:00Yeah, I see that. That's why I said kind of li...Yeah, I see that. That's why I said kind of like, not the same. Tracking a cascade is kind of annoying, though, even though mathematically it makes sense.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-77937155712060074012015-02-05T21:16:40.319-05:002015-02-05T21:16:40.319-05:00Your option 2 is Power 4 is 4 points of energy amo...Your option 2 is Power 4 is 4 points of energy among all spells. So 4 spells at 1 FP each, 2 at 2 FP each, 1 at 3 FP and 1 at 1 FP, 2 at 1 FP and 1 at 2 FP.<br /><br />My option 1 is Power 4 is 4 FP reduction for the first spell, 3 FP reduction for the second spell, 2 FP reduction for the third spell, 1 FP reduction for the fourth spell, and no FP reduction for any other spells.<br /><br />So it's not as much of a nerf as your option 2, but it means if the PCs want to use one item to maintain a spell for free on everyone, it's going to have a very expensive Power spell on it.<br /><br />As a variant, the reduction could be per spell, so if you had an item with Missile Shield, Haste, and Power 3, it could maintain 2 Missile Shields, a Haste 3, a Haste 2, and a Haste 1 for free (though the last Haste spell would be cast at -4 so that might be risky).Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-64072761614566534952015-02-05T20:40:19.029-05:002015-02-05T20:40:19.029-05:00So 1 is kind of like my option 2, above?
2 - Yeah...So 1 is kind of like my option 2, above?<br /><br />2 - Yeah, I could see that. I have a few more options I'll post up tomorrow when I'm doing writing them down, and one kind of resembles this in effect, I think.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-27385160498771583772015-02-05T20:36:55.839-05:002015-02-05T20:36:55.839-05:00Two suggestions:
1) The effectiveness of Power dec...Two suggestions:<br />1) The effectiveness of Power decreases by 1 with each additional spell it is supporting. So a Power 2 item can maintain a free Missile Shield and another at 1 FP per minute, while a Power 5 item could maintain 4 Missile Shields for free and a fifth for 1 FP.<br />2) Allow Power and general spells to be bought at a 40% discount if they can only be cast on the owner of the item, and transferring the item to another person cancels all current spells. The items aren't as useful, but they're cheaper and possibly less abusive.<br /><br />I might run with a combination of the two in my next DF game, but I think Power and maintaining spells for free is generally broken, away.Mark Langsdorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00301984145275679568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-28093026325766716842015-02-05T12:53:46.840-05:002015-02-05T12:53:46.840-05:00That's not a bad idea, but it's too late -...That's not a bad idea, but it's too late - we're 50-odd sessions into a game already featuring these kinds of items, and there are already items that violate that two-pronged approach in play, The above rulings wouldn't change the items, just change what happens if they're abused.<br /><br />I might have to take a sharp look at non-mages having any items that cast spells on others, which is #1. I know they'll just pass the item to the mage, but that's still a limitation - if the wizard doesn't show, or he's out of commission, so are your items.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-71770953116938532362015-02-05T11:21:00.633-05:002015-02-05T11:21:00.633-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941569633136391034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-278025819339936942015-02-05T10:51:10.502-05:002015-02-05T10:51:10.502-05:00Another option you might consider is to have two c...Another option you might consider is to have two classes of magic items: User only, and rechargeable.<br /><br />User only items can be self powered or require FP from the user/caster/wearer. Their effects end if the item is removed or passed. This forces everyone to get their own magic gear to get the bonus.<br /><br />Then you also have things like "wands" that can cast spells on others. These items do not draw FP from the user, but are self powered with limited amount of FP (charges), as detailed in Pyramid 3/36. I find the cost to recharge given in Pyramid to be a bit steep, and would instead use $5 * FP cost * Charges (same as the cost of recharging Power Items).Joseph Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06763490459580038801noreply@blogger.com