tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post8975521772254675448..comments2024-03-27T22:37:01.796-04:00Comments on Dungeon Fantastic: Peter's Do's and Don'ts of Game Book WritingPeter Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-46484796148954998912013-12-25T20:31:30.391-05:002013-12-25T20:31:30.391-05:00Or have put it in the main text and then argued fo...Or have put it in the main text and then argued for it to be put in a free 2-page PDF. It's not like having it gets you anywhere without the book, much like the technique cheat sheet just tells you how much you are missing not having Martial Arts.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-7642974057044320712013-12-24T14:53:34.405-05:002013-12-24T14:53:34.405-05:00The "easy to print out" thing bit me wit...The "easy to print out" thing bit me with TG, though. "why is the table ONLY in the back?!" Well, because you're going to want to consult them regularly in play. "Why didn't you put it in the main text also?" Because every word is tracked. <br /><br />If I had it to do over again, I'd have asked for an exception to be made here. The Training Bonus Table should have also been in the main text.Douglas Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292678529266123501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-39175630481823163882013-12-24T13:53:03.215-05:002013-12-24T13:53:03.215-05:00I like Basic more now, but yeah, it had the rep as...I like Basic more now, but yeah, it had the rep as "kiddie" D&D. Too bad.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-28888398319023888112013-12-24T10:22:17.258-05:002013-12-24T10:22:17.258-05:00Yes, yes, and yes.
I always skim books for exampl...Yes, yes, and yes.<br /><br />I always skim books for examples and read them before anything else. I often read the example <i>before I read the rule.</i><br /><br />And let me - and Doug! and Sean! and every other writer! - tell you, you find the big gaping flaws in your own work when you sit down to write the example. "Hmm. . . I can't explain this" or "Hey, it's not supposed to do that . . . "<br /><br />So it serves a couple of purposes, and they're interesting in and of their own right. They're what make the game rules come alive.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-6076905048692767072013-12-24T07:02:08.483-05:002013-12-24T07:02:08.483-05:00Pretty much agree on everything here. I'd also...Pretty much agree on everything here. I'd also add a couple "Do" which can be related to ones already mentioned above:<br /><br />1) Provide clear play examples. <br />After a long technical chapter on something, I LOVE reading a good play example, I find it really helps me understand the mechanics explained previously.<br /><br />2) Make your own word definition, keep it clean, provide a lexicon and use it consistently!<br />For example, I like when a RPG book uses something like this "if Joe does Grapple on Josh, do Contest vs STR, then you are Grappled", each term having a clear, searchable, indexed, definition and rule for it.<br /><br />3) Duplicate EVERY single table used in the book somewhere easy to find, print and use.<br />There's nothing worst than having to look in a 400 pages book for THAT one little table during a session or character creation.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08005671105078225501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-33794103514710623352013-12-23T22:23:38.270-05:002013-12-23T22:23:38.270-05:00I'd love to take it one further, where if you ...I'd love to take it one further, where if you mouse over a page ref, it brings up in a bubble the short section of the rules referenced. I'm not talking five pages of text, but something that doesn't make you jump back and forth in the doc would leverage the power of the digital medium pretty wholly.Douglas Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292678529266123501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-16927102750927792842013-12-23T21:36:36.197-05:002013-12-23T21:36:36.197-05:00I agree that some referencing is necessary but it ...I agree that some referencing is necessary but it is difficult when building a PC to have to keep flipping through a lot of books. Maybe there could be a quick review of what the advantage does for the PC in relation to the setting. Also a quick review of the advantages that the monsters have and their effects on combat would also be useful in the writing below the monster because I have over looked the advantages at times.b-doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11618256665898788769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-92195528374007440072013-12-23T19:06:25.729-05:002013-12-23T19:06:25.729-05:00The cost of eliminating page refs, though, is an e...The cost of eliminating page refs, though, is an enormous book, a huge increase in the possibility of introducing error, and a very cluttered book that's like to be harder to reference than one that points you back and forth.<br /><br />Hyperlinking them in PDFs would be awesome, though, but duplicating them in books would be a nightmare from a production and use standpoint. I think GURPS does pare it down a bit too much sometimes, but I'd rather flip pages than re-read the same thing in a dozen places in a giant book.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-724292194323387832013-12-23T18:50:15.275-05:002013-12-23T18:50:15.275-05:00Coming as I do from a 100% PDF based game collecti...Coming as I do from a 100% PDF based game collection, I will say that one thing that would really help every game that follows the "page reference" model is to enable these as hot links to the pages in question if they're in the same supplement. That sort of making use of the technology is a godsend.<br /><br />And in your example of the "bad example" from S&W - it isn't just an example of a bad use of the ability, it's an example of a bad DM. "That's not how it works" is too aggressive. A simple "Where would you like to search for traps? You have to be a bit more specific" would have sufficed, instead of rule shaming your players.Jason Packerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02240705069654358715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-77782881140920397402013-12-23T18:00:52.452-05:002013-12-23T18:00:52.452-05:00I agree with Blackwood on page references in GURUS...I agree with Blackwood on page references in GURUS. I would gladly pay more money to not have to flip through pages all the time. I feel seeing See pg X is probably the most annoying thing in GURPS.b-doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11618256665898788769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-55776968659658314022013-12-23T17:51:47.061-05:002013-12-23T17:51:47.061-05:00I agree with your comments about it is useful to s...I agree with your comments about it is useful to show readers what you mean. It really helps me to have worked examples for how to do things like find traps or to see monsters hidden in cobwebs in the ceiling and stuff like that. Also a lot of explanation of how magical spells and powers interact in dungeon delving is also useful to me.b-doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11618256665898788769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-53557136094795626842013-12-23T17:26:19.996-05:002013-12-23T17:26:19.996-05:00Actually, let me take this a bit further. Let'...Actually, let me take this a bit further. Let's say some GMs do, indeed, let Find Traps work like broad-spectrum trap-finding radar (instead of the narrow focus that S&W RAW allows for). All the example does is tell them they're playing the wrong way. Does this add anything? It's a nice little comment in the book that says "You are actively ignoring the intent of the rules and having the wrong fun."<br /><br />I'm arguing you just show how it's meant to be played, and then let the GMs and players take that wherever they are going. Express it clearly (Find Traps is for checking small mechanisms, wide areas should be handled by GM judgement based on player descriptions of their actions) and then give an example of it done that way. Then move on. Your work as a writer is done.<br /><br />Using an explanation of the wrong way is something I also address in the first point - tell me what your game is, not what it isn't. That example is telling me what it isn't.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-51244255130311053002013-12-23T17:10:57.723-05:002013-12-23T17:10:57.723-05:00See, that specific one gets under my skin, and I c...See, that specific one gets under my skin, and I can find a lot of examples of it in recent books. It's more helpful, to me, to define that stuff under "Find Traps" and explain there how it works or not. Do we need an example of play that shows people doing it wrong? I don't think so, and I went decades without play examples showing people being silly new school gamers doing it poorly because they don't get it . . . Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-8020144537669013042013-12-23T17:08:41.074-05:002013-12-23T17:08:41.074-05:00Fair enough, but that's not what I mean. I'...Fair enough, but that's not what I mean. I'm talking about telling how Level Draining works on page 17, and page 22, and under three different kinds of level draining undead. If you're going to put it under the monsters anyway, then you don't need it elsewhere. And if you're going to define it as a term of art just like you would HP or ST or Armor Class, then you don't need to re-explain it. "Drains 2 levels (see p. 17)" is fine.<br /><br />For your example of trip, it's bad if you explain on one page how trip works, and then how trip works when you mention later that I could also trip someone, or how trip works when you're costing it out in a point-buy sense, all in different spots. This is why I say<br /><br />"If it needs to be in multiple places, fine, but use page references to point back and forth between instances of the same thing. Even then, ask yourself, do I need to repeat this rule, this example, or this suggestion again? If you are even a little bit unsure, cut it."<br /><br />The example you give, I think is of something that could really benefit from repetition. The examples I gave above are places where it really doesn't benefit from repetition.<br /><br />Explaining all of something in two spots that makes sense is fine, but it's something you really need to ask yourself if it's necessary. All to often, it's not, and the explanations conflict in some why, or make it harder to read the book or know where to look for the definitive answer.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-50855952349749251142013-12-23T14:00:50.497-05:002013-12-23T14:00:50.497-05:00All good advice generally, but I think the warning...All good advice generally, but I think the warning that there is no "find traps radar" is a reasonable one, though it might be expressed more economically. Even if the description of the skill explains its parameters in detail, explaining its limitations seems reasonable. There are certainly games out there, and particular GMs, who <i>do</i> recognize "find traps radar", such that the distinction is a useful one.<br /><br />And I agree with [b]bblackmoor[/b] that a little repetition might be desirable in some cases, particularly where there are important synergies in the rules (as there are frequently in GURPS), and expressly discussing their interactions might be helpful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-64014779286601036242013-12-23T13:44:05.877-05:002013-12-23T13:44:05.877-05:00"If it needs to be in multiple places, fine, ..."If it needs to be in multiple places, fine, but use page references to point back and forth between instances of the same thing."<br /><br />Personally, I despise having to keep flipping back and forth through a book in order to understand how to do something. If I want to know how tripping an opponent works, don't make me flip back and forth between two (or three, or four) different sections and try to figure out how those sections work together. Put all of the rules for tripping under the heading that says "Tripping" (or whatever). If that means you repeat a some sentences between that section and the section on "Shoving", so be it.bblackmoorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16617692481304880921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-48183908305427118872013-12-23T12:04:19.998-05:002013-12-23T12:04:19.998-05:00It's funny, that's how I always felt when ...It's funny, that's how I always felt when they tacked on "Basic" Dungeon and Dragons and "Advanced" D&D. I always enjoyed 'Basic" much more than "Advanced" but back in the day you weren't 'cool' (for nerds) if you didn't play AD&D. It kinda turned me off of the whole game and I moved on to other things.bliss_infintehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12433733609487959653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-67042603552963366332013-12-23T11:19:14.985-05:002013-12-23T11:19:14.985-05:00I'm find with reminders and pointers - but for...I'm find with reminders and pointers - but for goodness sakes don't explain the rule to me again and again. It's there I see the most errors, too, because it's not explained the same way . . . Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817710432110712270.post-25562738449203225002013-12-23T10:16:46.635-05:002013-12-23T10:16:46.635-05:00"If you've told me once, it's enough...."If you've told me once, it's enough."<br /><br />I get where you're coming from on this, but I think there's a decent set (the ones with keyboards who have read TG, anyway) that like important things to be repeated both for emphasis and osmosis. <br /><br />I think SJG, with sometimes arbitrarily-seeming fondness for tight wordcounts, has left us thinking that the best way to write - maybe the only way - is "say it once, and respect your reader enough to not repeat it."<br /><br />But I think there's a large chunk of the population who would like to see that more as "say it loudly once, say it as a reminder in other critical places, and page reference everything else."<br /><br />I'm not sure I can settle on who's got the better point, but it is a flaw of how GURPS presents material: you'd better be good with search terms, or be capable of digesting 40,000 words of not-repeated technical prose.Douglas Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292678529266123501noreply@blogger.com