It's a good question - I grew up playing Dungeons & Dragons, but it could have more accurately been called Dungeons & Orcs or Dungeons & Treasures or Dungeons & Assorted Non-Dragon Monsters.
I don't think I'm alone in this experience - the Dungeons & Not Dragons experience.
Why?
Lots of us are probably guilty of saving dragons for later.
There are good reasons (dragons are scary and dangerous, so starting adventures can't handle them, it helps to have some buildup) and some not so good reasons (we hold them back for the "right" situation, or the "right" level of power of the adventurers). But all the same, it's really common to have dungeons and not nearly as common to have dragons.
Over on Google+, I wish I could relocate the thread, someone talked about running a (Pathfinder?) adventure for a 1st level group that featured a dragon-slaying weapon and a dragon you could kill. I remember the reaction of the veteran gamers being, basically, "lame;" that of the newbies, "Cool!" But I think, geez, wouldn't it have been cool to fight dragons early on, even if it was risky and/or required special assistance and/or turned out to be a fairly weak dragon? Maybe not at 1st level, but is it bad to get into fighting dragons very early?
I used more arch-devils and demon princes in my games than dragons. That's kind of sad, really - it's never a bad time to bust out a demon lord but I have to save dragons for the optimal moment to use one?
My current DF game has a dungeon with dragons in it, but the PCs haven't reach the level(s) where dragons are. So even I'm guilty of it, even if I'm more complicit than solely at fault.
Still, I'm starting to think I'm still doing the thing I'm bemoaning here - saving the good monsters for the end. Back-loading the fun.
Something to think about - myself and others. Why don't we put more dragons into the dungeons in our fantasy games? Why does putting dragons front-and-center, early and often, feel like a bad thing? Should it?
I'm starting to think that, no, I should have put them more into the spotlight into my DF game from day one.
I won't move the dragon or dragons in my dungeon, because that would feel lame, but I kind of wish I'd placed them for easier, earlier encounter. Maybe I should have put a dragon on level 1, honestly, and let the PCs work up to tougher dragons . . .
It's a fair cop. Dragons are the Batman of RPGs: too cool for you. And once you've had that big encounter with the iconic, and indeed eponymous monster, where is there to go but down? But, clearly, I've mentally built them up too much. I'm guilty of using assorted demonic beasties instead of dragons, but I really should take advantage of the flexibility I've got as GM to make up as many dragon subtypes as demons.
ReplyDeleteI love that - "Dragons are the Batman of RPGs: too cool for you."
DeleteI'm as guilty of using dragons as later-game monsters as probably anyone else; the silly thing is, in the original D&D brown books there's a pretty good system for scaling dragons for virtually any power level. A dragon's hit die (which determine both hit points and the damage of the breath weapon) is fixed according to the dragon type - white, black, green, blue, red, or gold. The age category of the dragon, though, determines how many points of each die you use for determining hit points and breath weapon damage: a very young dragon only gets 1 point per die for either, while a very old dragon gets a full 6 points per die. There are also pretty well-defined rules for the subdual and sale of a dragon as well. It seems that dragons were meant to occupy a special niche in original D&D, but not necessarily the top-tier, as they seem to have done over the years.
ReplyDeleteThey are definitely trying to encourage people not to back-load the dragons with the age systems and whatnot. D&D Next makes it even easier for the GM to incorporate crazy creatures because they stopped AC from going up forever as challenge level increases, meaning that a horde of low level characters could conceivably hit a dragon and hurt it to some degree.
DeleteThat's really kind of the funny thing. I started with the red box Moldvay Basic Set - and it came with dragons, complete with weaker, younger ones. But the more I played, the further I'd push them away from use.
DeleteI used dragons early on, once and (as far as I can recall) once only. It was either D&D or AD&D 1st Ed., and I was inspired by the age category rules mentioned by Frotz, up above, and a scene from some mid-80's fantasy movie. I think it was "Dragonslayer", maybe? The heroes discover the dragon's eggs and have to deal with freshly-hatched baby dragons. Nothing to sneeze at, if you're 1st level. I had a young'n come sneaking into camp, hoping to make off with one of the horses.
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly, though, that was the exception. Aside from that one time playing for the "Holy $^%&!" moment, I've always held the dragons in reserve for "a good moment" that usually never came.
The current dungeon has a spot on the map for one or more dragons, but I haven't formally stocked it yet, so they're still quantum.
I was as guilty of this as anyone, but I changed when 3E DnD brought in its wide array of dragon CRs it encouraged me to rethink. What worked out for me was making dragons a rare example of a large predator with an r-type reproduction strategy. That is to say, dragons have thousands of kids, the vast majority of which die.
ReplyDeleteBreeding age dragons, in most systems, a threats to entire armies. It makes sense that there can't be that many of them, and they are probably far away from civilization, or have come to some sort of accommodation with it. (Detente, trade, ruler ship ... something.) However, almost every breeding age female produces a clutch of baby dragons every year, which she promptly kicks out of the nest and sends out to survive on their own. Coddling their young is "A filthy mammal habit" and dragons (who are notoriously independently minded) will have none of it. On the other hand, if an entire nation has a proactive "exterminate the dragon-lings with extreme predjudice" policy that is occasionally taken badly.
This means there are always lots of little dragons coming out of the woodwork that cause trouble and need to be dealt with by folks who are not clear representatives of the sate, but no looming threat of angry dragon family to said freelancers.
Dragons are cool monsters to me. I like them to be sort of a plague instead of a final boss monster in a dungeon. I like the young dragons to be in various dungeon rooms while the older, huge dragons live in the deepest parts with some sort of way to go out from time to time. I like there to be lots of smaller dragons to kill on the way to killing the mother dragon. In my experience there is no climactic moment in dungeon delving because there is no way to know which fight will be memorable and which will end quickly. I like the idea there is a mother dragon that lays eggs in a dungeon and then the babies hatch and crawl away to other areas looking for food. Some of these dragons get bigger and others are still small. The PCs must find the mother and kill her before the dragons overpopulated the land. She is sort of like Tiamat who spawns monsters. Plus dragons are perfect dungeon monsters, they live forever and can live without food for a very long time and they hoard treasure.
ReplyDeleteI put a dragon on level 1 of my Castles and Crusades megadungeon, intending to use it as the big slowish monster everybody knows you have to escape from. Three attacks a round, 11 hit dice, a 3d6 cone-of-flensing-sand breath weapon, the works.
ReplyDeleteThe (1st level) players lured it into a temple with a living guardian statue. They let the two titans beat on each other till the statue broke, then slew it while it was wounded and trying to get away. It was terribly rude.
Actually, it's very cool to hear someone breaking this trend and using one right away, and having the PCs engage it.
DeleteIn "Thirty years of adventure: a celebration of Dungeons & Dragons" they said the Dragonlance campaign setting was designed because D&D had many Dungeons but very few Dragons :D
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I am an old-school player/DM, I don't think putting fledging characters against dragons is a good idea, unless you can create a good situation such in the Big McStringmuscle example above. By the way, dragons should be rare, not only powerful.
I remember the little Castle Dragon I put in my first Kata Kumbas adventure (KK is an Italian rpg) almost shocked my players, being totally unprepared to fight a dragon at low levels. Castle Dragons are a malicious and little subrace of dragons found in "Laitia", the world setting of Kata Kumbas. The one I put in that adventure killed one of the characters with its nervous system-shattering glance, so maybe it was right to spare dragons for higher level characters.
But why should they be more rare than, say, demon lords and eldritch abominations? They can be dangerous boss monsters while still being relatively common and weak enough that low level characters can contend with them, especially if the low level characters can muster an army or acquire higher level assistance (possibly through tricking it into fighting other powerful monsters).
DeleteDragons make frequent appearances in my games. In the current campaign, a shape changing gold dragon sits on the city council. There is a green dragon druid wandering around on the '1st level' of the Megadungeon. The last party met both of these before 3rd level.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at them as only adversaries, they CANNOT show up until later in a game. Running them as NPCs though, that's a different story.
I guess it depends partly on the game, but as others have pointed out, a small youngish dragon isn't a killer fight. So even in DnD I think they can show up early-ish, given skilled played as a less-than-awesome dragon. Like in Beedo's game: http://dreamsinthelichhouse.blogspot.com/2013/01/my-name-is-beedo-you-killed-my-dragon.html
DeleteI know in my case, though, I kept falling into the trap of "it's a dragon, it needs to be huge and ancient - at least!" and missing out on the value of the weaker ones as adversaries.
They don't even have to fight the dragon directly; stopping an evil cult from summoning a shadow dragon or creating a dracolich is feasibly a first level adventure centered on a powerful dragon they have no hopes of defeating... yet.
DeleteThe young dragons are always useful as well. The first I threw at the players in our current game was a young dragon full of bluster and arrogance. The players called his bluff and killed him.
The D&D 3.x Starter Boxes had very young dragons in them at the very end. I've run my players through those way back in the day.
ReplyDeleteOther than that, during the 2e era when I started running games dragons just seemed too powerful compared to their 1e counterparts.
In 1e, they scaled up the PCs but didn't scale up the dragons much. So in 2e I think you were the victim of blacklash, and they scaled them up a lot without leaving any weaker ones in.
DeleteYep. That's what happened. I still have my older brother's 1e adventure notes where 3rd-4th level characters get attacked by an adult red dragon with 9 HD, and 40 hp, doing the same amount of damage with its breath weapon.
DeleteIn 2e, just a juvenile red dragon has 15 HD as the base and does 8d10 damage with its breathe weapon. Even the lowliest red dragon wyrmling could breathe for 2d10+1 damage.
Yeah, dragons were saved for later in 2e.
I've always been guilty of this, and now that you mention it, I think that's a shame.
ReplyDeleteEspecially if the dragon can talk, then why not have the PCs encounter it early on? Who says the PCs have to fight the beast? They can talk to it. And of course they can always run from it or avoid it (assuming they spot it before it's aware they're there).
The really stupid thing is, that I already have PCs encounter other creatures far more powerful than they are, on the assumption that they can always talk or run rather than fight. But for some reason, as you say, I always end up "saving" the dragons for some future time that never arrives.
That's how I feel - why do I throw a demon that can kill you with a word without hesitation, but save dragons for the day after the campaign ends? Especially because like you I'll unleash powerful creatures from the word "go."
DeleteYou could always plunk a 100 meter dragon* on top of the dungeon and see how hard the PCs work to find another entrance, talk their way past, or sell their dragon-removal services to the orcs.
ReplyDelete*Icelander's PCs killed a 1500m one. I know I did a double-take when I read that.
If the rumors about a giant sleeping dragon in the dungeon are true, well, that might happen . . .
DeleteI had my group encounter a powerful dragon sort of early on. I felt that their resourcefulness meant that in theory they could've used some of their clever trickery and faultless 'skin-of-teeth' solutions to best it. I didn't want to make it an easy fight however, as a dragon should be a DRAGON, so no small/young ones here.
ReplyDeleteAs it happened, the xenophile in the group instantly attempted to befriend it, and the groups legend and previous actions in the area meant the dragon decided to hire them rather than destroy them. It then became an infrequent 'quest giver' NPC, hiring the group to do 'small-folk' things that it didn't want to.
I did throw in a mechanical (ie, fake) dragon earlier on, to test the water and see if they could beat it and how they'd react. They got minced up and spat out, and ended up just avoiding it. Which might go to explain the groups reluctance to take on the *real* dragon when they later encountered it, with its additional higher IQ and magic. However I'm aware that putting in 'fake' dragons rather than real ones is just another method of struggling to use them at the same time as back-loading them.
As for dragons as adversaries however, I generally find their problem is simply that dragons are, well, DRAGONS. Their iconic, powerful, awe inspiring beasts that the game itself is named after. Everyone knows that dragons are the climax of any given story, they're the big big that everything is working towards. Their size and potency also suggests that they must be fairly rare, else they'll have more of an impact on the rest of the world. They're therefore entirely undermined when you try to make them small enough or weak enough to easily best, and common enough to encounter on happen-stance.
Dragons are like your wedding, whilst arch-devils and demon princes (etc) are like christmas. You might care about getting chirstmas dinner right, but it'll happen every year, and any imperfections in the day can be adjusted for and tidied up for the next time. A wedding on the other hand is a singular event (or at the least, rare and unlikely to happen more than a few times), you want *everything* to be *perfect*, because you only get one shot at it.
As such, dragons just feel too *special* to use. Like your best crockery, you're afraid of potentially breaking them if you get them out. You don't want to use them too often and make them too common, because they'll then be a humdrum encounter, like orcs but bigger and with less pleasant breath (arguably). Like a party, you don't want to just spring them on your group only to find that not everyone can attend (or is willing to, when the 'party' has teeth the size of swords). You don't want the fights to be easy or over too quickly, as a dragons prestigious infamy suggests they're meant to be savoured like a well-aged spirit, and not chugged down like cheap swill.
So to sum up, dragons basically have too much ego now, we've built them up on such high pedestals that we're just too reluctant to try and take them down to use. If the game had been called Dungeons and Mythical Beasts, I dare say we'd see a lot more of them. They'd be the 'standard' treasure room guardian and the nastier/upgraded version of an orc raiding party. As it stands though, I think we'll always put them off in hopes of using them *perfectly* once, rather than boringly many times.
"As it stands though, I think we'll always put them off in hopes of using them *perfectly* once, rather than boringly many times."
DeleteThat's how I ended up using more demon lords and arch devils and even demi-gods than dragons.
If you don't use the special crockery, you may as well not even have it, IME. If some break, fine, get more. A plate is a plate, and a dragon is just another monster - and that's what I am trying to come to terms with here. I want to stop saving them for "perfectly" and accept that's a fools quest. Perfect will happen when I least expect it, not when I plan it ahead of time, if my games are any indication.
I take a different approach and plan to use the perfectly many times, knowing that I likely won't use any monster perfectly ever. But if I can get close even once, then it's worth it. So, dragons everywhere, or at least fairly common, like once every three or four levels.
DeleteOn the other hand, our current campaign is shooting a lot higher than dragons. The final boss is a god and the players know that, so dragons really are small fry in comparison to what they'll be going up against in the end. At least dragons can die.
It does put things into perspective if you have a god waiting for you.
DeleteHaving grown up and paid my GMing dues on a 4 years long Dragonlance campaign back in the 80's, I'm quite comfy with Dragons personally and now I use them often, either as direct threats, or shadows in the background.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, and I don't think many people realize this...You cannot kill a dragon unless you wield crazy amount of power that you can front-load, are ultra lucky, or ultra clever (and the dragon very dumb).
Even the youngest of them can simply pick you up, fly couple hundred feet and drop you somewhere. If hurt, it can just fly away. If clever, it'll just circle around you out of bow reach, then just come around for massive dragon breath or couple of magic spells, then circle back around. At best, it's a draw...
Add to that ultra long lifespan, possible genius level of intelligence that will challenge even the best GMs out there and you got one of the ultimate Apex creature you could ever throw around as a GM, even better than gods and whatnot to me.
I use dragons often in my campaigns though, my current players met one, a young white, while travelling, at level 2. But one thing I made immediately clear through description and actions: "I'm not kidding around, this is a dragon...".
After a couple of them were thrown from cliffs, lost an arm and toyed around, they got the memo and it was everyone for himself. Even 15 sessions later, this is still the scariest and deadliest encounter they've faced. So "shit your pants" that one decided, on his own accord, that he'd have severe Dragon-phobia from now on and even the word "dragon" is still taboo.
In the same campaign, a 3000 years old, 150' long, Black Dragon is also a constant presence. I treat it as a natural force with an agenda, bit like a tidal wave or a massive earthquake with sentience. PCs are not meant to face it head on, only react to whatever it's doing, and otherwise try to live their lives under it's shadow. I'm not heavy handed about it, but when it does something, it's not something you can ignore.
Oh I have stats and whatnot, they can have a go at it, but I won't be the one who forces that because to me, something that big, that powerful, simply ignores lesser beings like ants and who cares about 4 little ants crawling about...until they really annoy you. That fits perfectly with low level PCs who slowly gain power and experience.
Overall, I'd say use them as often as you want, they are just awesome creatures that can fit anything you want to do, any tale you want to tell...but only if you respect them. If you don't, they'll end up just being mounted heads on somebody's wall that nobody cares about and that's just a waste I think.
A happy medium would be nice. Like, say, a demon lord or a beholder or a lich. Something that makes you sit up and say "oh crap, we're f***ed" but isn't held off forever just to make sure you don't use it less-than-perfectly. I think I need to settle on "well."
DeleteMy regret is putting in dragons but in a way that's made them less likely to be encountered early. I should amend that, because we've got 40+ sessions in my game and 30+ in the megadungeon that has a dragon in it, yet it's still a "someday, if they encounter it." That's kind of sad.
Could always have one from the outside coming to visit her long lost cousin for a couple weeks and wonder how her cousin could sleep for so long that some silly wizard managed to build an entire mega-dungeon on-top of her lair, then "ask" the PCs to send messages back and forth and help her dig herself out...or something! :)
DeleteMore seriously, what do you expect's gonna happen when/if they meet the said dragon? Just another battle, maybe bigger than the others?
Big battle, unless they talk to it. Actually, maybe even if they talk to it. Which is fine with me. I've done the whole "dragons are a wondrous source of knowledge if you speak to them, and instant death if you fight" thing and it's part of what led to this post. Bring on the fighting, if they like the loot they see.
DeleteSmaug talked, but eventually they went and killed him. That's fine with me!
If it's just another battle, don't quite see the problem with the "when". I mean, apart from stats, won't be much different between that and some green slime or whatever.
DeleteAs long as it fits within your Mega-Dungeon context, it'll come when the PCs get there, no sooner, no later, like any other monster :)
I see it differently - we've had 32 sessions in the dungeon, and no one met the dragon yet. Simply by placement, I've made them less important and held them back from being a part of the game so far. Had I do it differently - say, stuck a dragon in that big library room on level 1, or in the ruins on top, or on level 2 being served by those lizard men, it would have already been a part of my game. It'll come when they meet it, but it's my fault if I place things in a way that ensures it'll take a long time to get there. That's no different in effect than just holding them back for later.
DeleteTrue, but since the dragon serves no real purpose anyway, I don't quite see why it matters.
DeleteI mean, imagine you'd have placed him on level 2 as you said, apart from a battle that the PCs would have won or lost and being part of your game earlier, what purpose would that provide compared to any other of the creatures already on level 2?
In the end I think my problem is that I just can't get into the DF/dungeon crawl mentality so I'm having problems grasping what's the difference in putting dragons earlier or later if they're pretty much just here to be bashed on.
Re-reading your post, I missed that the issue was indeed more oriented toward using dragons for "cool battles", and not "cool NPCs". In that light, I agree that it's one of these monsters that are quite hard to fit "properly" and understand why some tend to push them to later in an adventure. I mean, with proper stats and played as they should be, they're mean buggers and an encounter with one can easily result in a very quick TPK.
That said, you could test the waters with some kind of quick random encounter with a hunting/travelling dragon during the PCs trip from the town to the dungeon. It might give you more control over the battle than the one deep in your mega-dungeon, allowing you to tune it a bit, and get used to it, before they get there.
In any case, can't wait for the session report of when your guys will get down there :)
In my experience monsters done well are more than interchangeable piles of HP and damage and loot, so it could have changed a lot if I used one earlier. Plus they have cache and interest, in the same way, say, a lich has cache and interest in a way that a non-lich mage doesn't even if it's equally a threat to the lich. So that's what I feel like I'm missing.
DeleteUse the dragons, certainly early on if you have a multitude of dragon colors and age levels for dragons. Little and young dragons just aren't as tough as old ancient ones and this comparison can be used by canny players to judge their chance of success.
ReplyDeleteHave a dragon hatching season that happens every decade or so that floods the campaign with infant dragons, have villains with dragons serving as steeds to indicate how powerful said villain really is and put insanely powerful dragons on the map (canyon foolish enough to go for that dragon too early will die).
Give the PCS an opportunity to learn about dragons and to make good decisions and foolish ones.
I think that's a good approach.
DeleteI had a group of level 1 PCs take on a dragon. They lit a campfire right in front of the dungeon. It came to them, they fled but everyone made it out. They later went back, made a fire to attract it, and ambushed it. I ran the encounter by the book and they did it in with only 1 PC death. The hilarious thing was that they never did find its treasure hoard.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't nerf dragons too much. They should be scary.
I like that story.
DeleteI'm not saying to nerf them, really. Just not to save them for later.