Players often try to get in a lot of information in negotiations, even with Broken fluency.
But Broken just won't do it.
You can't communicate very much with it, just big, simple concepts. "Surrender!" might be fine, but "Give us your treasure or we'll kill you" might just come across as "treasure" and "kill." Or it might come across as just one of those . . . or neither . . . if you mispronounce the words or forget that word order matters in this language. Or not even know that. That's why it requires an IQ roll in stressful situations (per B. 24). Negotitations always count as stressful situations.
You need a pretty good run of IQ rolls, backed by lots of simplification of what you want, to get places in Broken. In my experience, Broken's main use, besides as a stepping stone to Accented, is so you can get some of those big concepts. You probably won't drink the bottle labeled "POISON!" or open the door saying "DANGER!" (or maybe you will anyway, but you get a chance to choose.) It's one point written, one point spoken. It's 2 points. A full 4 is what you need for most purposes, and 6 for unpenalized wide use.
It's useful to have . . . but it's not a substitute for better language skill.
Definitely something I miss about 3e where someone with a decent IQ score could drop 1/2 a point in a language and call it a day. 6 points? OUCH!
ReplyDeleteI don't miss that at all. People used to have a choice between 8 points for +1 to Broadsword, or get 16 languages at a reasonably fluency. Uh, no. I agree 6 points feels like a lot, but it was underpriced before.
DeleteDitto, but this is more a comment on the way high Attributes break the system rather than the relative "cheapness" of Languages. Frex, a high DX character could also make the choice between "dropping 8 points in a Language or a 1/2 point in 16 different weapon skills"... but you rarely hear people complain about that. ;)
DeleteI always struggle with Language's pricing, it /seems/ expensive to me, especially in genres where language is not supposed to be important (like say, Star Wars), so I usually reduce the cost a bit, because "not important" doesn't mean "never important" (see again Star Wars, specifically Return of the Jedi) and thus how "expensive" it should be needs adjustment based on genre (or the implication that an NPC will be there to perform the role should a translator be required).
ReplyDeleteI have no issue with repricing it in games where it just isn't that important of a deal, or the expectation is people are multi-lingual and it's just a casual thing. I really only have a big issue when people think cheaping out to the minimum level basically gives them fluency with an accent and broad language ability.
DeleteAgreed. In games where I keep Languages regularly priced but expect Characters to have broad fluency I give out "Background Skill Lenses" that include different groups of 1 point "hobby type" skills, and one package always includes a bunch of languages and cultural familiarity, and I still give out a Cultural Lens that usually includes 2-4 Languages.
DeleteI'm a big fan of Cultural and Hobby Skill Lenses that aren't included in Professional Template.
Frex when I build Templates, I have the standard Primary, Secondary, and Background skill groups, but I also have "and pick one Cultural Lens and one Hobby Lens".
I've been redoing all my DF Templates and using Gaming Ballistic/Douglas Cole's "Delver's to Grow" and making my own "Build a Delver" packages....
(just taking a moment to pimp out Doug's book: https://gaming-ballistic.myshopify.com/collections/all-products/products/delvers-to-grow-one-click-bundle?_pos=4&_fid=0924609a3&_ss=c&variant=42649433047295 )
If I remember rules correctly, IQ roll is required only when someone with Broken fluency speaks with another person with Broken fluency. I do not remember, is there any rolls for speaking with Broken fluency to someone who understand this language as Native, but I would ask for IQ+3, if under stress and the idea is complex - but your interlocutor* wants to understand you. Pure IQ is, probably, for very complex concepts or unwilling interlocutors.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion Broken level meens that you are capable to speek, understand speeking, write and read, but with lots of mistakes and misunderstandings. So, -3 for any skill for negotiations seems enough, -6 is for skills, that require complex understanding of language, such as Poetry. The ability to use and understand just the simpliest words (both spoken and written) is, in my opinion, a perk.
Also about spending too many points on languages: many languages are related to each other and so should give defoult levels of other languages. This rule is somewhere in Basic Set. I use it quite frequently in my games. In combination with Language Talent it allous you to buy a lot of languages cheaply.
*BTW, I am not native English speaker and my writing level in English is, probably, Accented, so I had to google this word. It seems for me a bit strange that in English there is no "common" word for a simple concept "someone with whom I am talking".
You're remembering incorrectly - Basic Set, p. 24, is pretty clear. It even outlines reaction penalty for failed IQ rolls when using Broken with a Native person who already dislikes foreigners.
DeleteHm, you are right, thanks for pointing this out. I confused this rule with "Broken to Broken".
DeleteAlthough after reading the rules I would suggest that reaction penalty applies always and not just for failed IQ rolls.
I long while back I wrote this blog post that basically treats languages in DF as on/off traits, with some offering extra benefits for extra cost. That gave languages a bit of flavor and didnt get bogged down in questions of what you can and cannot communicate (which was the point at the time). It's just another way of looking at them.
ReplyDeletehttp://abovetheflatline.blogspot.com/2018/11/expanding-languages-in-dungeon-fantasy.html