Magic item in placement in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game is naturally of a lot of interest to me. I started playing DF a bit late in the line's life - I wrote DF12 before I was able to get my first pure DF game going. I felt like I had to come up with my own approach since there was no system being handed down from above to determine treasure by level or monster type, as I had back in my AD&D and then Rolemaster days.
DF8 provides random treasure tables, which of course can place magic items. You can determine the total value of treasure to be placed used the tables in DF21 Megadungeons. The latter is what I developed out of my own thoughts on how to randomly allocate total value of treasure.
But I largely place magic items directly - either on a cost basis ($10,000 worth of enchanted items, and then I go pick) or a wing-it basis (I think these guys should guard Grimslaughter.)
I have an idea of what kinds of items I prefer to put down in the loot, too, as discussed previously.
But what about everyone else? What systems and approaches do you find works for you? What hasn't worked? Where are you at now, and where would you be if you started over again (or plan to do next time)?
Showing posts with label treasure. Show all posts
Showing posts with label treasure. Show all posts
Monday, February 24, 2025
Wednesday, January 8, 2025
Felltower, Money, and ACOUP's article
I linked to an interesting article on ancient and medieval coins vs. fantasy gold coins over on ACOUP.
Felltower uses devalued currency compared to standard DF. I use a silver standard, but gold coins appear in numbers. There are a few reasons for that:
- Felltower is more Renaissance / Pre-Modern than Medieval or Ancient.
- Felltower doesn't feature a true vassalage system, or a gifting culture in general.
- Modern expectations are not to be given gifts with social expectations attached, but to be paid. At least modern, US expectations.
- Devalued currency with gold coins thrown about are a fantasy fiction expectation.
I don't pretend my system is historical. It just needs to feel realistic in some way, not actually reflect history. I find it a lot easier to hand over different cultural expectations than to get people used to using money to exchange for good and services to not expect to do that.
Felltower uses devalued currency compared to standard DF. I use a silver standard, but gold coins appear in numbers. There are a few reasons for that:
- Felltower is more Renaissance / Pre-Modern than Medieval or Ancient.
- Felltower doesn't feature a true vassalage system, or a gifting culture in general.
- Modern expectations are not to be given gifts with social expectations attached, but to be paid. At least modern, US expectations.
- Devalued currency with gold coins thrown about are a fantasy fiction expectation.
I don't pretend my system is historical. It just needs to feel realistic in some way, not actually reflect history. I find it a lot easier to hand over different cultural expectations than to get people used to using money to exchange for good and services to not expect to do that.
Monday, August 26, 2024
Why so stingy for selling monster bits?
Last session, my players had their characters drag home a dead young chimera/stone bull hybrid to try to sell it in town as a curio. It did not sell, and they were forced to dump it.
In generally, monster bits are a tertiary form of loot in DF, behind actual found money and cashing in empties - selling weapons and armor.
Why is that?
First off, it's in the books that way.
The DF books highlight the valuable monster bits that can be sold. There are not a lot of them, and they rarely sell for much. A few monsters have very valuable bits - dragons, for example - but most have nothing especially valuable and a few have some moderate value.
So suddenly turning every monster into a pile of bits requires either a generic ruling about value, or assigning specific values to each and every monster. Then, logically, I'd have to apply a percentage off of that based on type and amount of damage. If you reduced the Baby Mira to -8xHP (for example), with -5xHP being auto-death and -10xHP being total destruction, that's going to reduce the value. But what about it dying right away at -1xHP due to a failed HT roll, but, say, you killed it with fire? I could just wave that away, sure, or apply broad-strokes rulings, but again, I'd need to generate a value system for monster corpses.
The next bit is that it would change the game. It would go from "Finding the monsters and kill them, and hopefully find loot!" to "Harvest the latest crop of monsters." The goal goes from exploring a huge dungeon at great risk for wealth and to fight evil, to find any monster and kill it in the most corpse-preserving fashion possible and probably leave enough to repop for next time because they're valuable. I know the arguments about how people used all the bits of whatever animal, and animal tails and furs are useful commodities, and so on . . . but this doesn't sound fun.
Additionally, it would result in a lot of mechanical logistical annoyance. Kill the monster, have a specific weight for it, figure out how to carry it out, and repeat. On top of that, people who wanted to maximize the value might just take the valuable bits - surely the meat of an owlbear is not as valuable as its pelt, and does anyone really want the beak? If not, now we're looking at a system for that, too - how much does the skin weigh, how much time to get it off, which bits are worth which amount, etc.
I talk not from some abstract theory of what would happen, but what has happened repeately in my games even in the face of failure. Even knowing - being flat-out told - it's unlikely anyone would want anything that isn't already highlighted in the books as especially valuable, players tend to try to eke out just a bit more loot with dragged home monster bits not known to be valuable.
So, in my experience, allowing monster bits to be sold as a matter of course would add headache to my end as the GM, and change the nature of the game from "Get rich and fight evil!" to "Farm monsters." And I don't want to play the latter, so I skew the rules to the former even if that annoys players who know real-world people buy bits of dead animals all the time.
So for now, and for all time, 95 to 99 times out of 100, dragging whole monsters home isn't going to pan out. The 1-5%? Live ones, intact, and the special bits called out. If the rules - mine or published - don't say it's valauble, it's not, and no Merchant rolls, Charisma levels, or whatever will change that. Leave the dead lie and keep looking for gold.
In generally, monster bits are a tertiary form of loot in DF, behind actual found money and cashing in empties - selling weapons and armor.
Why is that?
First off, it's in the books that way.
The DF books highlight the valuable monster bits that can be sold. There are not a lot of them, and they rarely sell for much. A few monsters have very valuable bits - dragons, for example - but most have nothing especially valuable and a few have some moderate value.
So suddenly turning every monster into a pile of bits requires either a generic ruling about value, or assigning specific values to each and every monster. Then, logically, I'd have to apply a percentage off of that based on type and amount of damage. If you reduced the Baby Mira to -8xHP (for example), with -5xHP being auto-death and -10xHP being total destruction, that's going to reduce the value. But what about it dying right away at -1xHP due to a failed HT roll, but, say, you killed it with fire? I could just wave that away, sure, or apply broad-strokes rulings, but again, I'd need to generate a value system for monster corpses.
The next bit is that it would change the game. It would go from "Finding the monsters and kill them, and hopefully find loot!" to "Harvest the latest crop of monsters." The goal goes from exploring a huge dungeon at great risk for wealth and to fight evil, to find any monster and kill it in the most corpse-preserving fashion possible and probably leave enough to repop for next time because they're valuable. I know the arguments about how people used all the bits of whatever animal, and animal tails and furs are useful commodities, and so on . . . but this doesn't sound fun.
Additionally, it would result in a lot of mechanical logistical annoyance. Kill the monster, have a specific weight for it, figure out how to carry it out, and repeat. On top of that, people who wanted to maximize the value might just take the valuable bits - surely the meat of an owlbear is not as valuable as its pelt, and does anyone really want the beak? If not, now we're looking at a system for that, too - how much does the skin weigh, how much time to get it off, which bits are worth which amount, etc.
I talk not from some abstract theory of what would happen, but what has happened repeately in my games even in the face of failure. Even knowing - being flat-out told - it's unlikely anyone would want anything that isn't already highlighted in the books as especially valuable, players tend to try to eke out just a bit more loot with dragged home monster bits not known to be valuable.
So, in my experience, allowing monster bits to be sold as a matter of course would add headache to my end as the GM, and change the nature of the game from "Get rich and fight evil!" to "Farm monsters." And I don't want to play the latter, so I skew the rules to the former even if that annoys players who know real-world people buy bits of dead animals all the time.
So for now, and for all time, 95 to 99 times out of 100, dragging whole monsters home isn't going to pan out. The 1-5%? Live ones, intact, and the special bits called out. If the rules - mine or published - don't say it's valauble, it's not, and no Merchant rolls, Charisma levels, or whatever will change that. Leave the dead lie and keep looking for gold.
Sunday, December 3, 2023
Where is the magic treasure in Felltower?
Following up on my post about treasure in Felltower . . . let's talk about magic treasures in Felltower.
Note that in my previous post I didn't really talk about magic vs. mundane treasure.
That's because my treasure generating system - displayed in DF21 - is a total value of a hoard. It's not the mundane value, just the value.
What does that mean for magic loot?
Short version, magic loot is more likely to turn up in big hoards than in small ones. Look at the previous post - the bigger sources of loot are also likely to be the bigger sources of magical loot.
Longer version?
It's complicated.
Big hoards often have magical treasure.
Intelligent monsters will use magical treasure actively.
Abandoned loot might include magical treasure . . . but it's generally consumables and the odd minor item.
Wandering monsters actually have a higher chance of magic loot than non-magic loot. In that there have been a few special wandering monsters - the original Sword Spirit, Valmar, carried a significant magical sword, for example, and Durak has some magical items he uses. There might be others. But these are also especially lethal encounters and aren't the norm.
With those caveats, what I said last time on treasure still stands.
I think I've said this before, but:
All of the magic items in DFT3: Artifacts of Felltower? They're in, or accessible from, Felltower. Every single one.
DFRPG Magic Items? The unique items are all in, or accessible from, Felltower. All of the new consumables, too.
Other magic items books, like DF6 or Doug's excellent books? Some of the items are in Felltower.
More I cannot yet say. Hopefully, deeper delving will unearth more of these items.
Note that in my previous post I didn't really talk about magic vs. mundane treasure.
That's because my treasure generating system - displayed in DF21 - is a total value of a hoard. It's not the mundane value, just the value.
What does that mean for magic loot?
Short version, magic loot is more likely to turn up in big hoards than in small ones. Look at the previous post - the bigger sources of loot are also likely to be the bigger sources of magical loot.
Longer version?
It's complicated.
Big hoards often have magical treasure.
Intelligent monsters will use magical treasure actively.
Abandoned loot might include magical treasure . . . but it's generally consumables and the odd minor item.
Wandering monsters actually have a higher chance of magic loot than non-magic loot. In that there have been a few special wandering monsters - the original Sword Spirit, Valmar, carried a significant magical sword, for example, and Durak has some magical items he uses. There might be others. But these are also especially lethal encounters and aren't the norm.
With those caveats, what I said last time on treasure still stands.
I think I've said this before, but:
All of the magic items in DFT3: Artifacts of Felltower? They're in, or accessible from, Felltower. Every single one.
DFRPG Magic Items? The unique items are all in, or accessible from, Felltower. All of the new consumables, too.
Other magic items books, like DF6 or Doug's excellent books? Some of the items are in Felltower.
More I cannot yet say. Hopefully, deeper delving will unearth more of these items.
Tuesday, November 28, 2023
Where is the treasure in Felltower megadungeon?
There is a lot of treasure in Felltower, but it's not evenly distributed across rooms or encounters. Where can you find it?
From most to least, here are the places - roughly - where you will or will not find treasure.
Dedicated treasuries. There are few of these in Felltower, but they exist. These places are usually guarded, trapped, hidden, or all three. They're loaded with treasure. The PCs found one of these after solving the "rotating statue" puzzle, and took home some serious loot - piles of coins, so much so that they missed some of them in a hidden compartment of a chest, a ring with wishes, and a few other significant magic items. Such places aren't terribly obvious, and are hard to blindly seek out, but they are out there . . . and have piles of loot. While not universally true, a well-hidden and (passively or actively) well-guarded location can be a sign of a potential hoard. Not always - some are just hidden and unguarded, other places aren't full of treasure but are guarded for other reasons . . . but the odds are in favor of loot behind loot-protecting defenses.
Hoards. Intelligent or otherwise treasure-hoarding monsters tend to have the biggest hoards. They may in fact exceed the dedicated treasuries - but they fall to second on this list because the amount of treasure can vary a lot more. The smarter, and the more powerful, the monsters, the bigger the hoard. It's almost directly linear because of the roll bonuses and penalties included in the treasure system I use (see DF21: Megadungeons.) These will be protected, and may not be with the monster itself - the loot might be hidden nearby. Do not expect an intelligent monster to carry its loot with it unless that's the only way to protect it. Sufficiently nasty monsters might feel free to leave their treasure out in the open, and even wander off away from it without fear of theft - knowing that the other dungeon dwellers won't molest it out of fear of the consequences. Most others will either need to stay close by, or leave it guarded - much like a dedicated treasury, with traps, concealment, and possibly guards.
Finding the "lair" of an intelligent or otherwise treasure-hoarding monster is a good way to increase your odds of finding loot. Expect that they'll want to keep you as far away from their loot as possible in many cases.
Unguarded, Hidden Treasure. Some "empty" rooms and "looted" areas have loot. It's a relatively small proportion of them - less than 1 in 6 of them initially, and many have been looted over the decade of play. But one way to secure treasure is to stash it somewhere that people will either avoid, or just bypass. Expect such to be carefully hidden, and hard to find - simply wandering around with See Secrets making Per checks isn't likely to turn it up . . . although it's a good start. What you can find will vary, but generally is small compared to guarded loot.
Believe it or not, "empty" rooms with unguarded but hidden loot will generally be more valuable than wandering monsters or patrols out looking for, or responding, to trouble.
Wandering Monsters. These are the least loot-worthy foes and have the lowest amount of treasure as a group. This has come up pretty consistantly since we started playing, with players new to the group and old, veteran and new to game. It's the idea that adventurers should welcome wandering monsters, as they'll be something to fight and have treasure. This is almost 100% false. Occasionally, some wandering monsters will be intelligent, armed foes that can be defeated and looted for their gear. But they're the minority. The majority of Felltower wandering monsters are unintelligent predators or scavengers - rat swarms, stirges, puddings, oozes, spiders, and similar nasties. None of them carry loot and not a person in the game world is willing to fork over money for their remains. Some wandering monsters are made of valuable bits, but you're taking a high-risk low-reward approach here; fine if you just want enough XP to hit the threshold for low-point PCs but even then the odds aren't in favor of this working out for you.
Even when intelligent, armed foes "wander" up, they're likely the sharp edge of a larger group, they usually don't fight to the death, and they almost never carry their loot with them into combat.* They're the "wandering monster" you least want to encounter unless your plan is "let the enemy set the objective." The PCs have often done exactly this, but it's always ended up with a bigger fight, for less gains, than penetrating to a superior loot location would gain them.
Good luck, and good looting. And stop banging on doors hoping to attract treasure-bearing monsters. It's a shell game.
* Like Colonel Bat Guano.
From most to least, here are the places - roughly - where you will or will not find treasure.
Dedicated treasuries. There are few of these in Felltower, but they exist. These places are usually guarded, trapped, hidden, or all three. They're loaded with treasure. The PCs found one of these after solving the "rotating statue" puzzle, and took home some serious loot - piles of coins, so much so that they missed some of them in a hidden compartment of a chest, a ring with wishes, and a few other significant magic items. Such places aren't terribly obvious, and are hard to blindly seek out, but they are out there . . . and have piles of loot. While not universally true, a well-hidden and (passively or actively) well-guarded location can be a sign of a potential hoard. Not always - some are just hidden and unguarded, other places aren't full of treasure but are guarded for other reasons . . . but the odds are in favor of loot behind loot-protecting defenses.
Hoards. Intelligent or otherwise treasure-hoarding monsters tend to have the biggest hoards. They may in fact exceed the dedicated treasuries - but they fall to second on this list because the amount of treasure can vary a lot more. The smarter, and the more powerful, the monsters, the bigger the hoard. It's almost directly linear because of the roll bonuses and penalties included in the treasure system I use (see DF21: Megadungeons.) These will be protected, and may not be with the monster itself - the loot might be hidden nearby. Do not expect an intelligent monster to carry its loot with it unless that's the only way to protect it. Sufficiently nasty monsters might feel free to leave their treasure out in the open, and even wander off away from it without fear of theft - knowing that the other dungeon dwellers won't molest it out of fear of the consequences. Most others will either need to stay close by, or leave it guarded - much like a dedicated treasury, with traps, concealment, and possibly guards.
Finding the "lair" of an intelligent or otherwise treasure-hoarding monster is a good way to increase your odds of finding loot. Expect that they'll want to keep you as far away from their loot as possible in many cases.
Unguarded, Hidden Treasure. Some "empty" rooms and "looted" areas have loot. It's a relatively small proportion of them - less than 1 in 6 of them initially, and many have been looted over the decade of play. But one way to secure treasure is to stash it somewhere that people will either avoid, or just bypass. Expect such to be carefully hidden, and hard to find - simply wandering around with See Secrets making Per checks isn't likely to turn it up . . . although it's a good start. What you can find will vary, but generally is small compared to guarded loot.
Believe it or not, "empty" rooms with unguarded but hidden loot will generally be more valuable than wandering monsters or patrols out looking for, or responding, to trouble.
Wandering Monsters. These are the least loot-worthy foes and have the lowest amount of treasure as a group. This has come up pretty consistantly since we started playing, with players new to the group and old, veteran and new to game. It's the idea that adventurers should welcome wandering monsters, as they'll be something to fight and have treasure. This is almost 100% false. Occasionally, some wandering monsters will be intelligent, armed foes that can be defeated and looted for their gear. But they're the minority. The majority of Felltower wandering monsters are unintelligent predators or scavengers - rat swarms, stirges, puddings, oozes, spiders, and similar nasties. None of them carry loot and not a person in the game world is willing to fork over money for their remains. Some wandering monsters are made of valuable bits, but you're taking a high-risk low-reward approach here; fine if you just want enough XP to hit the threshold for low-point PCs but even then the odds aren't in favor of this working out for you.
Even when intelligent, armed foes "wander" up, they're likely the sharp edge of a larger group, they usually don't fight to the death, and they almost never carry their loot with them into combat.* They're the "wandering monster" you least want to encounter unless your plan is "let the enemy set the objective." The PCs have often done exactly this, but it's always ended up with a bigger fight, for less gains, than penetrating to a superior loot location would gain them.
Good luck, and good looting. And stop banging on doors hoping to attract treasure-bearing monsters. It's a shell game.
* Like Colonel Bat Guano.
Sunday, October 22, 2023
Felltower quick update - items on the move?
I had a short window to do some work on Felltower today.
I found this list of lost items helpful:
Lost Items of Felltower
There are a lot of items just sitting the in the dungeon, too. The PCs gained - and lost - and in some cases re-gained and re-lost - dozens of significant magic items and interesting non-magical items in the dungeon.
The changes in the dungeon also afford a chance for items to change locations. Some of what was lost might end up with someone or something else. The dungeon doesn't stay static. There are a few ways that come up.
Long Overlooked
Some long overlooked items move around. What this can mean is that items long overlooked sometimes get discovered by new or old inhabitants. That's pretty rare, though. Generally, if something is so well hidden that PCs wandering around knocking on walls, casting See Secrets, casting Seek Earth for valuable metals, etc. couldm't find it, it's probably so well hidden that inhabitants and NPC delvers lacking this kind of perserverance are less likely to find them.
But it does happen.
Lost and Found
More commonly, items that the PCs just dropped - usually when dead - tend to travel around a bit. Many stay right where they fell. Most, even. But not everything that butchers a PC party keeps treasure. Sometimes, they leave it for scavengers. Sometimes, they take it and use it. Sometimes, even, they trade it for something else (goods, different items, as tribute in return for diplomatic gains, etc.)
Long Gone Lonesome Blues
Some items are loooooooong goooooone. Sold in town, dropped in the dungeon in places unconducive to their survival . . . and sadly, yes, in the clutches of retired PCs (or non-retired PCs run by players who aren't interested in coming back.)
Having a list of these has helped a lot. I know one of my players does, too, more as a checklist of things to find than my list of things to chuckle over.
I found this list of lost items helpful:
Lost Items of Felltower
There are a lot of items just sitting the in the dungeon, too. The PCs gained - and lost - and in some cases re-gained and re-lost - dozens of significant magic items and interesting non-magical items in the dungeon.
The changes in the dungeon also afford a chance for items to change locations. Some of what was lost might end up with someone or something else. The dungeon doesn't stay static. There are a few ways that come up.
Long Overlooked
Some long overlooked items move around. What this can mean is that items long overlooked sometimes get discovered by new or old inhabitants. That's pretty rare, though. Generally, if something is so well hidden that PCs wandering around knocking on walls, casting See Secrets, casting Seek Earth for valuable metals, etc. couldm't find it, it's probably so well hidden that inhabitants and NPC delvers lacking this kind of perserverance are less likely to find them.
But it does happen.
Lost and Found
More commonly, items that the PCs just dropped - usually when dead - tend to travel around a bit. Many stay right where they fell. Most, even. But not everything that butchers a PC party keeps treasure. Sometimes, they leave it for scavengers. Sometimes, they take it and use it. Sometimes, even, they trade it for something else (goods, different items, as tribute in return for diplomatic gains, etc.)
Long Gone Lonesome Blues
Some items are loooooooong goooooone. Sold in town, dropped in the dungeon in places unconducive to their survival . . . and sadly, yes, in the clutches of retired PCs (or non-retired PCs run by players who aren't interested in coming back.)
Having a list of these has helped a lot. I know one of my players does, too, more as a checklist of things to find than my list of things to chuckle over.
Sunday, December 4, 2022
10x Loot & 10x Magic Prices in Felltower - Full Proposal
This is the final proposal for 10x loot and 10x magic prices in Felltower.
My players will be voting on this privately.
Effects on Play & Rules
- Starting Wealth and Trading Points for Money are unchanged.
- Findable loot will be approximately 10x as much as before.
- Jewelry, gem, luxury good, and coin values will not change unless they are permanent or temporary magic items.
- Permanent and temporary magic items, items that convey spells (scrolls), spellstones, potions, etc. cost, and are worth, 10x listed or $200/point of energy.
- Potions sold in town are sold at $1,000 per as their base value (subject to Wealth sale percentages) regardless of the potion.
- Power Item recharging is $50/point.
- Spells cast by NPCs cost $200 per point, or 10x list cost (so $150,000 for Resurrection, or $10,000 for Remove Curse, $1,600 for Analyze Magic).
- Loot Thresholds for XP are 10x higher.
- Upkeep costs are unchanged.
Notes:
This should make magic items more scarce, since comparable (or nearly so) mundane items are cheaper.
Orichalcum is still restricted for purchase. You can't just order any. That's a Felltower feature.
This should also explain delving better - even a cruddy delve that nets you just enough for full loot XP for a brand-new delver - $2000 each - is far more than you could earn at a real job. You're risking death - probably courting certain death, eventually - but the payoffs can be staggering.
I'll add any future player comments or requested clarifications here.
Questions!
Will the weight of loot change, per this older post?
No, that's not listed above. We're voting based on the post above and not on any other discussions, ideas, floated rules changes, or other details disucussed elsewhere.
What would the Loot Threshold Tables look like?
Modified Method 2 (aka the rules that made it into DF21)
Up to 249 Points: $1,000 each (1x Average)
250-299 Points: $2,000 each (1x Comfortable)
300-349 Points: $4,000 each (2x Comfortable)
350-399 Points: $10,000 each (2x Wealthy)
400-449 Points: $40,000 (2x Very Wealthy)
450+ Points: $200,000 each (2x Filthy Rich)
Every additional 50 points: x10
Yes, that's a lot. A 500 point guy needs $2,000,000 to get 4 xp! No wonder they stay home and send weaker delvers to fight orcs and slimes!
My players will be voting on this privately.
Effects on Play & Rules
- Starting Wealth and Trading Points for Money are unchanged.
- Findable loot will be approximately 10x as much as before.
- Jewelry, gem, luxury good, and coin values will not change unless they are permanent or temporary magic items.
- Permanent and temporary magic items, items that convey spells (scrolls), spellstones, potions, etc. cost, and are worth, 10x listed or $200/point of energy.
- Potions sold in town are sold at $1,000 per as their base value (subject to Wealth sale percentages) regardless of the potion.
- Power Item recharging is $50/point.
- Spells cast by NPCs cost $200 per point, or 10x list cost (so $150,000 for Resurrection, or $10,000 for Remove Curse, $1,600 for Analyze Magic).
- Loot Thresholds for XP are 10x higher.
- Upkeep costs are unchanged.
Notes:
This should make magic items more scarce, since comparable (or nearly so) mundane items are cheaper.
Orichalcum is still restricted for purchase. You can't just order any. That's a Felltower feature.
This should also explain delving better - even a cruddy delve that nets you just enough for full loot XP for a brand-new delver - $2000 each - is far more than you could earn at a real job. You're risking death - probably courting certain death, eventually - but the payoffs can be staggering.
I'll add any future player comments or requested clarifications here.
Questions!
Will the weight of loot change, per this older post?
No, that's not listed above. We're voting based on the post above and not on any other discussions, ideas, floated rules changes, or other details disucussed elsewhere.
What would the Loot Threshold Tables look like?
Modified Method 2 (aka the rules that made it into DF21)
Up to 249 Points: $1,000 each (1x Average)
250-299 Points: $2,000 each (1x Comfortable)
300-349 Points: $4,000 each (2x Comfortable)
350-399 Points: $10,000 each (2x Wealthy)
400-449 Points: $40,000 (2x Very Wealthy)
450+ Points: $200,000 each (2x Filthy Rich)
Every additional 50 points: x10
Yes, that's a lot. A 500 point guy needs $2,000,000 to get 4 xp! No wonder they stay home and send weaker delvers to fight orcs and slimes!
Tuesday, March 8, 2022
How the draugr fell & loot
So the PCs finally destroyed the 33 elite draugr warriors in Felltower.
Why now, finally?
The main difference, in my opinion, was a combined set of three overlapping factors:
- significantly higher PC point totals
- willingness to make it a straight fight
- stronger will to win
PC point totals were much higher. Wyatt's player has the numbers on this, but it's 75-ish points if I recall correctly. Almost all of the PCs were much more powerful this time. The one that wasn't was Sir Bunny, who's relatively new, but he still held his own. The draugr did not change in power. It's just that skill 18-ish draugr were a terrific threat until the average PC had skill 20-ish and most of them were in the 25+ range thanks to potions enchancing DX. And some of the PCs - especially Wyatt - are built to fight humanoid foes with eyes and brains one-on-many. Tack on the ability to use significantly more and better buff magic on everyone and that effectively raises their point value.
A Straight Fight was acceptable to the PCs this time. Previous fights all broke down because they PCs insisted on only fighting the draugr with some kind of battlefield modification to force the druagr to accept damage for no return or to fight outnumbered against the PCs. That ranged from creating a magical wall with arrow slits, using magical servants to sneak up and spill alchemist's fire on the draugr, plans to sneak up and destroy them one by one, attempts to "raid" the draugr to kill a couple and drag them off so they could kill them one at a time, etc. We had hours of discussion that boiled down to "what spell will destroy them without damaging their equipment?" We had endless discussions about "what if they roll a 3?" and how to prevent that by not letting them melee. Even in this fight, the PCs were so worried about spear throwing they built tactics around standing and exchanging missile fire. But in the end they accepted that it would be a melee, and they wouldn't be able to make every character, in every second, fight at worst one-on-one. They accepted that they'd need to fend out multiple attacks and backed up this acceptance by minimizing flank attacks but not refusing to risk them.
A Stronger Will to Win is very heavily Wyatt, in my opinion. Wyatt pushed hard and often for this fight. He pushed back hard on any discussion of retreating or breaking off the fight. He didn't Leroy Jenkins the fight, but he argued strongly in favor of risk being a necessary part of the job. Minimizing risk was fine, but being unwilling to take risks wasn't on the table for him. So I credit him for making sure no one vetoed the draugr or insisted on "let's pull back" when losses were suffered. Even when Bruce went down, no one peeped about getting his body and running. It wasn't only him, but as the GM, I noted he consistently argued for the risk being worth the reward and insisting on taking that risk.
LOOT
So what was the loot?
33 gold eagles ($100 each)
32 silver and gold necklaces ($500 each, although 9 were badly damaged)
1 gold necklace with three rubies ($1000) that is also a Salamander Amulet.
32 suits of (Basic Set era) mail (they believe all) with Fortify +1 and Lighten 25% (+$2000 base value for the enchantments.)
1 suit of fine (Basic Set era) mail with Fortify +3 and Lighten 50% (+$26,000)
67 spears
~30 shields
31 oversized balanced broadswords
32 oversized balanced dwarven axes
1 oversized fine balanced broadsword with Accuracy +1 and Puissance +1
1 oversized fine balanced dwarven axe with Accuracy +1 and Puissance +1
The armor is mostly ~80% intact for pricing purposes, weapons ~70%. So the PCs stand to get a bit more for waiting until they can Repair them (note - this will cost some materials cost, worth ~10% of the base cost) and cast Analyze Magic without paying $400 per casting to verify the enchantments they believe are identical accross the board.
So that's what they ended with.
Why now, finally?
The main difference, in my opinion, was a combined set of three overlapping factors:
- significantly higher PC point totals
- willingness to make it a straight fight
- stronger will to win
PC point totals were much higher. Wyatt's player has the numbers on this, but it's 75-ish points if I recall correctly. Almost all of the PCs were much more powerful this time. The one that wasn't was Sir Bunny, who's relatively new, but he still held his own. The draugr did not change in power. It's just that skill 18-ish draugr were a terrific threat until the average PC had skill 20-ish and most of them were in the 25+ range thanks to potions enchancing DX. And some of the PCs - especially Wyatt - are built to fight humanoid foes with eyes and brains one-on-many. Tack on the ability to use significantly more and better buff magic on everyone and that effectively raises their point value.
A Straight Fight was acceptable to the PCs this time. Previous fights all broke down because they PCs insisted on only fighting the draugr with some kind of battlefield modification to force the druagr to accept damage for no return or to fight outnumbered against the PCs. That ranged from creating a magical wall with arrow slits, using magical servants to sneak up and spill alchemist's fire on the draugr, plans to sneak up and destroy them one by one, attempts to "raid" the draugr to kill a couple and drag them off so they could kill them one at a time, etc. We had hours of discussion that boiled down to "what spell will destroy them without damaging their equipment?" We had endless discussions about "what if they roll a 3?" and how to prevent that by not letting them melee. Even in this fight, the PCs were so worried about spear throwing they built tactics around standing and exchanging missile fire. But in the end they accepted that it would be a melee, and they wouldn't be able to make every character, in every second, fight at worst one-on-one. They accepted that they'd need to fend out multiple attacks and backed up this acceptance by minimizing flank attacks but not refusing to risk them.
A Stronger Will to Win is very heavily Wyatt, in my opinion. Wyatt pushed hard and often for this fight. He pushed back hard on any discussion of retreating or breaking off the fight. He didn't Leroy Jenkins the fight, but he argued strongly in favor of risk being a necessary part of the job. Minimizing risk was fine, but being unwilling to take risks wasn't on the table for him. So I credit him for making sure no one vetoed the draugr or insisted on "let's pull back" when losses were suffered. Even when Bruce went down, no one peeped about getting his body and running. It wasn't only him, but as the GM, I noted he consistently argued for the risk being worth the reward and insisting on taking that risk.
LOOT
So what was the loot?
33 gold eagles ($100 each)
32 silver and gold necklaces ($500 each, although 9 were badly damaged)
1 gold necklace with three rubies ($1000) that is also a Salamander Amulet.
32 suits of (Basic Set era) mail (they believe all) with Fortify +1 and Lighten 25% (+$2000 base value for the enchantments.)
1 suit of fine (Basic Set era) mail with Fortify +3 and Lighten 50% (+$26,000)
67 spears
~30 shields
31 oversized balanced broadswords
32 oversized balanced dwarven axes
1 oversized fine balanced broadsword with Accuracy +1 and Puissance +1
1 oversized fine balanced dwarven axe with Accuracy +1 and Puissance +1
The armor is mostly ~80% intact for pricing purposes, weapons ~70%. So the PCs stand to get a bit more for waiting until they can Repair them (note - this will cost some materials cost, worth ~10% of the base cost) and cast Analyze Magic without paying $400 per casting to verify the enchantments they believe are identical accross the board.
So that's what they ended with.
Tuesday, January 18, 2022
Why must you sell loot for XP in DF Felltower?
Why do PCs need to dispose of loot into cash in order to get the XP value of it?
It provides the following benefits:
PCs don't get to have their cake and eat it, too. They can't keep everything that might be of value, use it, and gain XP for having done so. They can't use things until they tire of them and then turn them into cash, having always gained all they could out of it. They need to make decisions about the need for loot vs. the optimum usage of gear they find. Since, in my games, the players always opt for a cooperative communal ownership model, this makes it less likely they'll hold onto random items just in case someone later makes up a new character who just happens to use it.
This in turn saves me a lot of headaches:
- massive lists of gear found;
- people forgetting what's been found and what's been sold;
- not having the weirdness of "hi new guy, want this +2 katar we found 47 sessions ago that you happen to have Weapon Master for?" which mysteriously never happens with NPCs;
- having to know the actual market value of everything, including things no one would sell (Shieldslayer, Sterick's armor, weird unique potions, etc.) and report it to the PCs so they can gain XP from it;
- not having to make weird rules about what "counts" for loot and what doesn't to avoid the former problem ("Okay, magic items don't count." "But what if we sell it?")
It also provides a lot of versimilitude in actions. PCs generally make hard choices about what to keep and sell, and make decisions for long-term item usage over XP, XP over long-term item usage, and so on, for purely gamey reasons. But in game, it's delvers coming to the surface with a valuable item, looking at each other, and saying, we need cash . . . let's sell this and hope we find better some other time. That feels right.
This is also why old loot doesn't count for XP - you can't take "just enough" out of a hoard and come back for more next time to make your threshold. You can't seed the dungeon with loot by bribing monsters and hoping to seize the loot back again. You have to deal with right now, right now.
So overall, it's a game construct that drives less bookkeeping and interesting decisions.
It provides the following benefits:
PCs don't get to have their cake and eat it, too. They can't keep everything that might be of value, use it, and gain XP for having done so. They can't use things until they tire of them and then turn them into cash, having always gained all they could out of it. They need to make decisions about the need for loot vs. the optimum usage of gear they find. Since, in my games, the players always opt for a cooperative communal ownership model, this makes it less likely they'll hold onto random items just in case someone later makes up a new character who just happens to use it.
This in turn saves me a lot of headaches:
- massive lists of gear found;
- people forgetting what's been found and what's been sold;
- not having the weirdness of "hi new guy, want this +2 katar we found 47 sessions ago that you happen to have Weapon Master for?" which mysteriously never happens with NPCs;
- having to know the actual market value of everything, including things no one would sell (Shieldslayer, Sterick's armor, weird unique potions, etc.) and report it to the PCs so they can gain XP from it;
- not having to make weird rules about what "counts" for loot and what doesn't to avoid the former problem ("Okay, magic items don't count." "But what if we sell it?")
It also provides a lot of versimilitude in actions. PCs generally make hard choices about what to keep and sell, and make decisions for long-term item usage over XP, XP over long-term item usage, and so on, for purely gamey reasons. But in game, it's delvers coming to the surface with a valuable item, looking at each other, and saying, we need cash . . . let's sell this and hope we find better some other time. That feels right.
This is also why old loot doesn't count for XP - you can't take "just enough" out of a hoard and come back for more next time to make your threshold. You can't seed the dungeon with loot by bribing monsters and hoping to seize the loot back again. You have to deal with right now, right now.
So overall, it's a game construct that drives less bookkeeping and interesting decisions.
Monday, January 17, 2022
Economic impact of money on the megadungeon town
I saw this post over on Tenkar's Tavern today:
Do You Hand-Wave Adventuring Economic Effects?
Short answer: no, but without inflation.
Longer answer:
I'm sympathetic to the idea that a lot of money hitting the market at once causes inflation. So does limited supply of goods. If both happen, zowie, your per-unit spending value drops. You may have 1000 gold instead of 10 gold, but 100 gold buys less than 100x what you used to be able to get for 10.
But it's a pain to put into play, without a computer, and no one likes it, even with a computer.
So I largely do the following:
- a big dump of like goods means each is worth less. PCs have tried to trickle-sell items to make up for this. They are able to do so, although my XP awards system discourages this, and I won't allow for Excel spreadsheeted sales trickles to allow for extra income over time. They can hold back and sell later and hope for a higher price, but again, my XP award system discourages this.
- I do random, big fluctations in prices and availability. Boom, magic items cost more. Bang, potions cost more (my players from my old GURPS game remember the magical disaster to caused a potion price rise.) Snap, the prices for certain services go up.
- I also kept track for a while of loot that hit town, and let spent money in town - not just held on to, but spent - increase the local economy. Over time, more good became available for purchase. The PCs basically "unlocked" access to better goods and services - the more expensive ones - by spending money in town.
I can report these all worked fine.
Do You Hand-Wave Adventuring Economic Effects?
Short answer: no, but without inflation.
Longer answer:
I'm sympathetic to the idea that a lot of money hitting the market at once causes inflation. So does limited supply of goods. If both happen, zowie, your per-unit spending value drops. You may have 1000 gold instead of 10 gold, but 100 gold buys less than 100x what you used to be able to get for 10.
But it's a pain to put into play, without a computer, and no one likes it, even with a computer.
So I largely do the following:
- a big dump of like goods means each is worth less. PCs have tried to trickle-sell items to make up for this. They are able to do so, although my XP awards system discourages this, and I won't allow for Excel spreadsheeted sales trickles to allow for extra income over time. They can hold back and sell later and hope for a higher price, but again, my XP award system discourages this.
- I do random, big fluctations in prices and availability. Boom, magic items cost more. Bang, potions cost more (my players from my old GURPS game remember the magical disaster to caused a potion price rise.) Snap, the prices for certain services go up.
- I also kept track for a while of loot that hit town, and let spent money in town - not just held on to, but spent - increase the local economy. Over time, more good became available for purchase. The PCs basically "unlocked" access to better goods and services - the more expensive ones - by spending money in town.
I can report these all worked fine.
Tuesday, October 19, 2021
Haul from Sakatha
Here is what the PCs took home from Sakatha's lair (remember 1 sp = $1 in DF Felltower, and gold is $5000 per pound) last session:
Sakatha's gold crown, cut in two ($16,000 worth of gold)
4 gold bracelets worth $1000 each
Girdle of Savage Might
4" Crystal Ball, enchanted with Crystal Ball-15 ($40,000)
23,010 sp ($23,010)
1,361 gp ($27,220)
51 pieces of jewelry (av. $200 each)
100 assorted gemstones (av. $100 each)
6 Javelins of Shock
5 Javelins of Penetration
7 Javelins of Fire
Two scrolls - one turned out to be cursed, inflicting a fungal disease on Gerry . . . it took Remove Curse and Cure Disease to remove it. The other was a charged wizard scroll with Aura-15 (x4)
Iron lamp sealed with magic symbols of sealing.
Dwarven Whetstone
Fine Thrusting Broadsword, Puissance +1, Flaming Weapon ($22,800) (this was Ashers, and Vryce's before that, from Session 8.
- Sakatha was wearing the Girdle of Savage Might. It didn't detect as magical, because its powers aren't from wizardly magic. Or holy, for that matter. They gave it to Bruce after Crogar passed on it because it wasn't something he'd like to wear. So now Bruce has it. Details are in Barbarians, p. 29. One of my players asked if this was from a book, or from me. Both! So now Bruce is even stronger than before.
- Ulf's player also played Desmond, and wanted them to save the crytal ball, so Desmond could learn Crystal Gazing and scry. Uh, no, they chose $16K over that.
- The javelins will probably show up in some Felltower article at some point. Suffice it to say they're one-shot.
- the cursed scroll wasn't resisted. Yeah, not really fair. Just kidding, of course that's fair.
- that was El Murik's whetstone.
- the PCs never found where the non-magical stuff from their dead PCs was stored. It was there, but they never found it.
- That's about $90K in cash or equivalent to cash, plus ~$16K in a salable crystal ball, plus magic items. And the PCs salvaged Sakatha's broken shield and trident and are thinking to pay for a Repair spell so they can sell them for a small (less than $100) profit. Yeah . . . I don't know.
Sakatha's gold crown, cut in two ($16,000 worth of gold)
4 gold bracelets worth $1000 each
Girdle of Savage Might
4" Crystal Ball, enchanted with Crystal Ball-15 ($40,000)
23,010 sp ($23,010)
1,361 gp ($27,220)
51 pieces of jewelry (av. $200 each)
100 assorted gemstones (av. $100 each)
6 Javelins of Shock
5 Javelins of Penetration
7 Javelins of Fire
Two scrolls - one turned out to be cursed, inflicting a fungal disease on Gerry . . . it took Remove Curse and Cure Disease to remove it. The other was a charged wizard scroll with Aura-15 (x4)
Iron lamp sealed with magic symbols of sealing.
Dwarven Whetstone
Fine Thrusting Broadsword, Puissance +1, Flaming Weapon ($22,800) (this was Ashers, and Vryce's before that, from Session 8.
- Sakatha was wearing the Girdle of Savage Might. It didn't detect as magical, because its powers aren't from wizardly magic. Or holy, for that matter. They gave it to Bruce after Crogar passed on it because it wasn't something he'd like to wear. So now Bruce has it. Details are in Barbarians, p. 29. One of my players asked if this was from a book, or from me. Both! So now Bruce is even stronger than before.
- Ulf's player also played Desmond, and wanted them to save the crytal ball, so Desmond could learn Crystal Gazing and scry. Uh, no, they chose $16K over that.
- The javelins will probably show up in some Felltower article at some point. Suffice it to say they're one-shot.
- the cursed scroll wasn't resisted. Yeah, not really fair. Just kidding, of course that's fair.
- that was El Murik's whetstone.
- the PCs never found where the non-magical stuff from their dead PCs was stored. It was there, but they never found it.
- That's about $90K in cash or equivalent to cash, plus ~$16K in a salable crystal ball, plus magic items. And the PCs salvaged Sakatha's broken shield and trident and are thinking to pay for a Repair spell so they can sell them for a small (less than $100) profit. Yeah . . . I don't know.
Monday, May 31, 2021
Where is the loot in Felltower from?
The delvers in my Felltower campaign have been fairly hit and miss with loot. Sessions with a lot of loot, sessions with moderate amounts of loot, and numbers without any loot.
Still, characters have generally steadily climbed up the XP ranks as the required loot hadn't really been that high, often by some combination of moderate loot, sold equipment and magic items, and so on. So much so that I recall someone specially saying something about "farming orcs for XP" - going to fight and kill orcs because, hey, every 4th or 5th one has a good-quality broadsword, that's $240 each one, plus the rest have a mix of axes ($16), spears ($16), bows ($40-80), and armor, plus some actual coinage on each one.
That's an implicit criticism of the lack of look in Felltower and the associated areas. I decided to give it a look from this side of the screen.
When I first launched the campaign I didn't put in enough loot. I went through and added more, and then did another pass or so to add more. I created loot tables that reflect how much cash value a given pile of loot should have - you can see them in DF21.
From my side of the screen, in order of total value:
- jewelry/gems/coinage (all saleable at 100% of stated value in my game, everything else is subject to the usual rules.)
- magic items
- luxuries (tapestries, furniture, paintings, wine, etc.)
- weapons and armor
- scrap & monster body parts
I think one of my players can probably run numbers on what the PCs actually took home. I am curious if it matches the above.
For so many delves, it's been more like this:
- sold magic items
- weapons and armor
- scrap & monster body parts
- coinage
- luxuries
So much so that my players tend to look at plain furnishings, wall decorations, random geological formations, wandering monster body parts*, etc. as loot. If I put a box of hardtack somewhere, I sure as heck better know how much it weighs, how big it is, and how valuable it is as the players will likely have their delvers haul it back as loot.
Part of this post is me wondering what I see on my side vs. the players see on their side. The other part is to reiterate that Felltower isn't really designed as a stingy game. It's a lethal game. If you try to play it to avoid the danger, yeah, it'll be stingy as the real loot is protected by monsters, traps, and concealment. But I will say there is a lot of it where I did place it. A while back we had a discussion of how I distribute the treasure out, and in general the players liked the way it's spread (or actually not spread) throughout the dungeon.
It's just that I see the coins and jewelry as the bulk of the value, the magic items next (assuming you sell them), luxuries next, and then everything else tapers off from there down to minimal value. It seems like the delvers perceive it as magic items, weapons and armor, etc. and then coinage and luxuries down at the bottom. I think that can color the organization of delves, too - if you think the money is in broadswords and helmets, selling off magic items you don't need, and monster bits with a sprinkling of loot, what kind of things are you going to aim for? You're going to look for fights - and refuse to avoid them if they even have a chance at loot - instead of focusing purely on finding the big raw loot payoffs. Even trying to find gold and silver with Seek Earth only results in the closest, not the biggest, so you're no more likely to find the 100,000 coin hoard than the 1 sp some guy has tucked in his boot for luck.
I'll have to sit down and think more on how I can make the game more find-the-treasure centric and less realize-the-value-of-your-kills centric.
* Even of monsters not considered valueable. We've been through this so many times I made up rules for it. Yes, you can see deer bits and cups of ooze or whatever but if a choice body part of a rare monster is only $100-200, you're not going to get more than piddling pocket change. It's why you are delving and not killing squirrels to sell the tails to Mepps.
Still, characters have generally steadily climbed up the XP ranks as the required loot hadn't really been that high, often by some combination of moderate loot, sold equipment and magic items, and so on. So much so that I recall someone specially saying something about "farming orcs for XP" - going to fight and kill orcs because, hey, every 4th or 5th one has a good-quality broadsword, that's $240 each one, plus the rest have a mix of axes ($16), spears ($16), bows ($40-80), and armor, plus some actual coinage on each one.
That's an implicit criticism of the lack of look in Felltower and the associated areas. I decided to give it a look from this side of the screen.
When I first launched the campaign I didn't put in enough loot. I went through and added more, and then did another pass or so to add more. I created loot tables that reflect how much cash value a given pile of loot should have - you can see them in DF21.
From my side of the screen, in order of total value:
- jewelry/gems/coinage (all saleable at 100% of stated value in my game, everything else is subject to the usual rules.)
- magic items
- luxuries (tapestries, furniture, paintings, wine, etc.)
- weapons and armor
- scrap & monster body parts
I think one of my players can probably run numbers on what the PCs actually took home. I am curious if it matches the above.
For so many delves, it's been more like this:
- sold magic items
- weapons and armor
- scrap & monster body parts
- coinage
- luxuries
So much so that my players tend to look at plain furnishings, wall decorations, random geological formations, wandering monster body parts*, etc. as loot. If I put a box of hardtack somewhere, I sure as heck better know how much it weighs, how big it is, and how valuable it is as the players will likely have their delvers haul it back as loot.
Part of this post is me wondering what I see on my side vs. the players see on their side. The other part is to reiterate that Felltower isn't really designed as a stingy game. It's a lethal game. If you try to play it to avoid the danger, yeah, it'll be stingy as the real loot is protected by monsters, traps, and concealment. But I will say there is a lot of it where I did place it. A while back we had a discussion of how I distribute the treasure out, and in general the players liked the way it's spread (or actually not spread) throughout the dungeon.
It's just that I see the coins and jewelry as the bulk of the value, the magic items next (assuming you sell them), luxuries next, and then everything else tapers off from there down to minimal value. It seems like the delvers perceive it as magic items, weapons and armor, etc. and then coinage and luxuries down at the bottom. I think that can color the organization of delves, too - if you think the money is in broadswords and helmets, selling off magic items you don't need, and monster bits with a sprinkling of loot, what kind of things are you going to aim for? You're going to look for fights - and refuse to avoid them if they even have a chance at loot - instead of focusing purely on finding the big raw loot payoffs. Even trying to find gold and silver with Seek Earth only results in the closest, not the biggest, so you're no more likely to find the 100,000 coin hoard than the 1 sp some guy has tucked in his boot for luck.
I'll have to sit down and think more on how I can make the game more find-the-treasure centric and less realize-the-value-of-your-kills centric.
* Even of monsters not considered valueable. We've been through this so many times I made up rules for it. Yes, you can see deer bits and cups of ooze or whatever but if a choice body part of a rare monster is only $100-200, you're not going to get more than piddling pocket change. It's why you are delving and not killing squirrels to sell the tails to Mepps.
Sunday, February 28, 2021
Reflections on Loot Thresholds in DF Felltower
XP in DF Felltower is run off of a "loot threshold" method that I detailed in DF21. I allow unequal splits of loot to allow people to meet that threshold.
The tier we use is "Method 3" - 100 points, then 50 point tiers, like so:
Required Profit (Tiered, 100, then 50 point spread)
Up to 249 Points: $100 each (1/5 Struggling)
250-349 Points: $200 each (1/5 Average)
350-399 Points: $400 each (1/5 Comfortable)
400-449 Points: $1000 each (1/5 Wealthy)
450-499 Points: $4000 (1/5 Very Wealthy)
500+ Points: $20,000 each (1/5 of Filthy Rich)
Every Additional 100 Points: x10
I may at some point switch to a full "Method 2" loot threshold, which cuts the first tier from 250-349 to 250-299 and moves the rest down appropriately.
Why?
One reason is because 300-349 point guys taking $200 for 4 xp is feeling lame, especially after having made two full passes through my dungeons revising treasure up substantially (the system in DF21 reflects this revision.) A 300 point character is substantially more powerful than a 250 point character. It's also 10 successful delves worth of trips, yet to still only need $200 (when $150 pays for upkeep) seems weak. You could potentially go from 250 to 350 points in 20 delves taking in a grand total of $4000. You're better off bottom feeding on the lower-return treasures for your first 20 delves, just trying to make enough to get by, than to take any real risks.
Plus, the 349 to 350 jump is a big deal, as it doubles your required return. Players can and do save up for something big so that jump is not just "1 more spell" or "Learn Survival (Woodlands)" or something, but rather "+1 DX" or "Extra Attack" or "buy Weapon Master." (Admittedly, dropping this to 299 to 300 jump might do the same earlier . . . but the stakes are necessarily smaller.) This isn't a problem, but it is a thing.
Also I think it makes people with less than 350 point character think of themselves as newbies. I've heard a lot of "we're delving pretty deep for our point level" type of comments - although not in so many words - as people delve on levels and in areas originally set up with 250-300 point guys in mind with 350-450 point characters. I've seen decisions made based on trying to get XP from minimized risk. It's appropriate behavior given the incentives, but it does mean we've played DF Felltower for over 9 years and I can count sessions spent below "level 4" of the dungeon on one hand. The number of gates really, truely braved is limited, too - and the vast majority of gate travel has been to one gate, leading to an area of known, moderate risk - the Lost City. Any gate with some actual danger has only been visited ones (Olympus, Icy Gate, Forest Gate, Air Gate) or zero times (all the rest except the Ape Gate.) Why? It doesn't really take that much loot . . . and if you feel fragile, you'll act fragile.
Another reason are uneven splits.
Unequal Splits:
In DF Felltower the split get handled in a very game-y, self-aware fashion. Galen doesn't get 3 shares, or 4 shares, or something, he gets $4000 on the nose if it's possible to get him $4000, or he gets $800 + extra if there is extra after the others get $200 or 400, etc. It's very meticulously plotted out. I don't really care, but as a flavor thing, it's a downside of my approach to keep in mind if you allow unequal splits!
The main issue I see is that this encourages the powerful gusy to "bottom feed." You don't really need that much money to get 2 xp or 4 xp. You can basically take a 450 point guy (4K or 8K) and a 400 point guy (1000 or 200) along with 8 250-349 point guys (200 or 40) on a delve and only need $6,600 for max XP for everyone or $1320 for 2 xp for everyone. $1320 is 5 opponents with thrusting broadswords sold at 40%. It's not a lot. It's not even enough for upkeep for the whole group ($1500).
You get the oddity of guys with Greed arguing to unevenly split the loot away from them so the skilled guys get more XP, because it's the smart move and allows them to make more and more in the future. It's a bizarre artifact of the system. The players get put in a bind where staying in character is pushed against by the needs of a better, more gamist positive result.
Unequal splits of money in a gold-for-xp system like older D&D systems encouraged given the big loot to the lower level guys so they'd learn faster. At least this approach encourages paying the high-end talent more in order to get everyone the win. That's a very serious upside to allowing this! It doesn't always work that way, though. If the whole group is falling short, the loot split tends to reverse - the big guys get 0, and take 0, and give all of the rest to the others to get as many people as possible as much XP as possible.
Although it hasn't happened so far due to the personalities and needs of the top-point guys in DF Felltower, soon enough a generous type will be the rich, high-point delver. They'll happily take the $4000+ for full points (450-499) or 2 xp (500+) and then spend it on gear for their buddies. So it's pass the money up for xp, then pass it back down for gear. Double-dipping at its finest. You get the XP from the money split unequally - and everyone benefits - and then you use the money euqally - and everyone benefits.
The only way to solve that, I think, is allowing unequal splits of loot but assigning XP by the total loot taken divided evenly.
That might also be an interesting way to deal with the "bottom feeding" issue. If you really need $20,000 x number of PCs to get the 500+ point guys 4 xp for treasure, it doesn't matter how many orcs you whack skulking around level 2 and "pruning the orc tree." With 8 players you'd need $160,000 to make it worth the big guy's while, and $32,000 to earn any XP at all.
Putting in both of the rules would be a very abrupt change in how things are done. Putting in one or the other might not deal with the behaviors. I have in the distant past put in fairly parsimonious treasure. I went back through Felltower in multiple sweeps raising the loot to higher levels (which are reflected in DF21 and the random treasure system there.) So more money is there, and has been for a while. Even a single-fight delve against a mid-level boss monster and a handful of minions (such as our most recent session) generated enough for everyone to get max XP. The high-point characters weren't in any real danger, and the lower-point characters were threatened (hey, it's a boss encounter) but not especially so. It's not terribly hard to pull down a fair amount of loot anymore, if you go where it is instead of exploring where it used to be. But the XP system encourages hunting orcs for swords and skimming off loot and piling it on higher-point delvers as needed.
I'm undecided if I'll do one (change to Method 2, the only one seen in DF21 or banning unequal splits for XP purposes) or both. They might need to be done together, to encourage the risk/reward drive to push actually quite powerful delvers to take something more than minimal risks!
The tier we use is "Method 3" - 100 points, then 50 point tiers, like so:
Required Profit (Tiered, 100, then 50 point spread)
Up to 249 Points: $100 each (1/5 Struggling)
250-349 Points: $200 each (1/5 Average)
350-399 Points: $400 each (1/5 Comfortable)
400-449 Points: $1000 each (1/5 Wealthy)
450-499 Points: $4000 (1/5 Very Wealthy)
500+ Points: $20,000 each (1/5 of Filthy Rich)
Every Additional 100 Points: x10
I may at some point switch to a full "Method 2" loot threshold, which cuts the first tier from 250-349 to 250-299 and moves the rest down appropriately.
Why?
One reason is because 300-349 point guys taking $200 for 4 xp is feeling lame, especially after having made two full passes through my dungeons revising treasure up substantially (the system in DF21 reflects this revision.) A 300 point character is substantially more powerful than a 250 point character. It's also 10 successful delves worth of trips, yet to still only need $200 (when $150 pays for upkeep) seems weak. You could potentially go from 250 to 350 points in 20 delves taking in a grand total of $4000. You're better off bottom feeding on the lower-return treasures for your first 20 delves, just trying to make enough to get by, than to take any real risks.
Plus, the 349 to 350 jump is a big deal, as it doubles your required return. Players can and do save up for something big so that jump is not just "1 more spell" or "Learn Survival (Woodlands)" or something, but rather "+1 DX" or "Extra Attack" or "buy Weapon Master." (Admittedly, dropping this to 299 to 300 jump might do the same earlier . . . but the stakes are necessarily smaller.) This isn't a problem, but it is a thing.
Also I think it makes people with less than 350 point character think of themselves as newbies. I've heard a lot of "we're delving pretty deep for our point level" type of comments - although not in so many words - as people delve on levels and in areas originally set up with 250-300 point guys in mind with 350-450 point characters. I've seen decisions made based on trying to get XP from minimized risk. It's appropriate behavior given the incentives, but it does mean we've played DF Felltower for over 9 years and I can count sessions spent below "level 4" of the dungeon on one hand. The number of gates really, truely braved is limited, too - and the vast majority of gate travel has been to one gate, leading to an area of known, moderate risk - the Lost City. Any gate with some actual danger has only been visited ones (Olympus, Icy Gate, Forest Gate, Air Gate) or zero times (all the rest except the Ape Gate.) Why? It doesn't really take that much loot . . . and if you feel fragile, you'll act fragile.
Another reason are uneven splits.
Unequal Splits:
In DF Felltower the split get handled in a very game-y, self-aware fashion. Galen doesn't get 3 shares, or 4 shares, or something, he gets $4000 on the nose if it's possible to get him $4000, or he gets $800 + extra if there is extra after the others get $200 or 400, etc. It's very meticulously plotted out. I don't really care, but as a flavor thing, it's a downside of my approach to keep in mind if you allow unequal splits!
The main issue I see is that this encourages the powerful gusy to "bottom feed." You don't really need that much money to get 2 xp or 4 xp. You can basically take a 450 point guy (4K or 8K) and a 400 point guy (1000 or 200) along with 8 250-349 point guys (200 or 40) on a delve and only need $6,600 for max XP for everyone or $1320 for 2 xp for everyone. $1320 is 5 opponents with thrusting broadswords sold at 40%. It's not a lot. It's not even enough for upkeep for the whole group ($1500).
You get the oddity of guys with Greed arguing to unevenly split the loot away from them so the skilled guys get more XP, because it's the smart move and allows them to make more and more in the future. It's a bizarre artifact of the system. The players get put in a bind where staying in character is pushed against by the needs of a better, more gamist positive result.
Unequal splits of money in a gold-for-xp system like older D&D systems encouraged given the big loot to the lower level guys so they'd learn faster. At least this approach encourages paying the high-end talent more in order to get everyone the win. That's a very serious upside to allowing this! It doesn't always work that way, though. If the whole group is falling short, the loot split tends to reverse - the big guys get 0, and take 0, and give all of the rest to the others to get as many people as possible as much XP as possible.
Although it hasn't happened so far due to the personalities and needs of the top-point guys in DF Felltower, soon enough a generous type will be the rich, high-point delver. They'll happily take the $4000+ for full points (450-499) or 2 xp (500+) and then spend it on gear for their buddies. So it's pass the money up for xp, then pass it back down for gear. Double-dipping at its finest. You get the XP from the money split unequally - and everyone benefits - and then you use the money euqally - and everyone benefits.
The only way to solve that, I think, is allowing unequal splits of loot but assigning XP by the total loot taken divided evenly.
That might also be an interesting way to deal with the "bottom feeding" issue. If you really need $20,000 x number of PCs to get the 500+ point guys 4 xp for treasure, it doesn't matter how many orcs you whack skulking around level 2 and "pruning the orc tree." With 8 players you'd need $160,000 to make it worth the big guy's while, and $32,000 to earn any XP at all.
Putting in both of the rules would be a very abrupt change in how things are done. Putting in one or the other might not deal with the behaviors. I have in the distant past put in fairly parsimonious treasure. I went back through Felltower in multiple sweeps raising the loot to higher levels (which are reflected in DF21 and the random treasure system there.) So more money is there, and has been for a while. Even a single-fight delve against a mid-level boss monster and a handful of minions (such as our most recent session) generated enough for everyone to get max XP. The high-point characters weren't in any real danger, and the lower-point characters were threatened (hey, it's a boss encounter) but not especially so. It's not terribly hard to pull down a fair amount of loot anymore, if you go where it is instead of exploring where it used to be. But the XP system encourages hunting orcs for swords and skimming off loot and piling it on higher-point delvers as needed.
I'm undecided if I'll do one (change to Method 2, the only one seen in DF21 or banning unequal splits for XP purposes) or both. They might need to be done together, to encourage the risk/reward drive to push actually quite powerful delvers to take something more than minimal risks!
Monday, February 15, 2021
Which Artifacts of Felltower are actually in Felltower?
Yesterday I mentioned my book, Dungeon Fantasy Treasures 3: Artifacts of Felltower. Long-time observers will have noticed things in the book that have not made an appearance in Felltower.
What gives?
Two things.
One, all of those things exist in Felltower. They just haven't all been recovered yet.
Second, many of the things that haven't appeared in Felltower had previously appeared in GURPS games of mine. Felltower isn't necessarily part of some "multiverse" in an AD&D or Marvel sense, but I do like to think that it could easily fit into my previous gameworld somewhere, or connect to my old game world by a gate if necessary.
So which is which?
Previous Game
The following items featured in my previous 3rd-turned-4th game that I ran from 1999-2010.
Agar's Wand, Atrugex's weaponry, Malice, Grimslaughter, Frenzy, Buckler of Warding, Graceful Gloves, Potion Ring, Statuette of the Death Goddess.
Names in Italics were known of but not owned.
Felltower
The following items have been found and at least briefly owned:
Shieldslayer, the Razor (found and sold!*), Sigurd's Sword, Undead Bane amulet (p. 8 bonus item!), Universal Sword (used as a longsword), Magescale (two suits), Giant's Strength (potion), Heroism (potion), Mana Gout (potion), Antimagical Bracelet (as Laccodel's Rune), Wand of Electricity, Protective Ring, and the very influential Statuette of the Death Goddess.
Did I miss any that you guys have noticed? Otherwise, I think that's the list. The rest exist . . . somewhere.
* Because no one's primary weapon was a shortsword. Yep. GURPS min-maxing sometimes cuts both ways.
What gives?
Two things.
One, all of those things exist in Felltower. They just haven't all been recovered yet.
Second, many of the things that haven't appeared in Felltower had previously appeared in GURPS games of mine. Felltower isn't necessarily part of some "multiverse" in an AD&D or Marvel sense, but I do like to think that it could easily fit into my previous gameworld somewhere, or connect to my old game world by a gate if necessary.
So which is which?
Previous Game
The following items featured in my previous 3rd-turned-4th game that I ran from 1999-2010.
Agar's Wand, Atrugex's weaponry, Malice, Grimslaughter, Frenzy, Buckler of Warding, Graceful Gloves, Potion Ring, Statuette of the Death Goddess.
Names in Italics were known of but not owned.
Felltower
The following items have been found and at least briefly owned:
Shieldslayer, the Razor (found and sold!*), Sigurd's Sword, Undead Bane amulet (p. 8 bonus item!), Universal Sword (used as a longsword), Magescale (two suits), Giant's Strength (potion), Heroism (potion), Mana Gout (potion), Antimagical Bracelet (as Laccodel's Rune), Wand of Electricity, Protective Ring, and the very influential Statuette of the Death Goddess.
Did I miss any that you guys have noticed? Otherwise, I think that's the list. The rest exist . . . somewhere.
* Because no one's primary weapon was a shortsword. Yep. GURPS min-maxing sometimes cuts both ways.
Thursday, December 31, 2020
New(ish) release - Dungeon Fantasy Treasures 4: Mixed Blessings
(Unforseen circumstances today mean I can't get Part IV of my series up today. It should be up tomorrow!)
In case you missed it, like I did, this came out on 12/23:
Basically, 13 magic items that are good enough to keep and use, but which have drawbacks. You know, like everything I hand out in my games. Heh. I'll get a review up soon-ish.
In case you missed it, like I did, this came out on 12/23:
Basically, 13 magic items that are good enough to keep and use, but which have drawbacks. You know, like everything I hand out in my games. Heh. I'll get a review up soon-ish.
Friday, December 18, 2020
Links & Thoughts for Friday 12/18/2020
It's Friday, so here is some random stuff.
- Noble Knight finally has a copy of Fire in the Lake 2nd printing, but price + shipping is ~$75, and the rules are in "Fair" condition. Ugh. New it's $85 . . . I'll keep looking, I think.
- I'll continue the Laws of Felltower posts next week. They're fun and a good way to codify the play style and how the world/game is shaped by it and shapes it in turn.
- Doug's group turned up a big treasure haul by beating up some fodder monsters I created for DFM1 (rock mites and slugbeasts*). It's a big haul even without them having the Bow of Su.
Linked in it is a post of Kromm's talking about treasure. It's a good description of how I generally do it - I place treasure by what belongs where. I do randomly generate a lot of the total treasure value, but what it is must fit the encounter. Or fit some plausible story of how it got there.
That said, sometimes I do get some odd results using my tables from DF21. Like, say, the giant worms down in Felltower who had treasure, but clearly couldn't have carried any. I decided the area they were in had treasure. They had none, but there were gems to be pulled out of the stone in the area they'd been encountered in. It made sense in-game, and it made sense according to what I rolled. Sometimes I get powerful, intelligent creatures with no treasure . . . but some tough-ish monster elsewhere with way too much. Maybe the powerful, intelligent type stores its treasure and guards it with the tough-ish monsters elsehwere. It's plausible and it fits and helps create a story.
I'm also 100% behind Kromm on the "what fits, not placed to fit" approach. I almost never put things in just because someone might be able to use them. Not never, because I do have an eye towards its useability. But I don't custom-place items for one character or another, or because so-and-so needs a new weapon, or whatever. It's why we've got a swashbuckler wearing armor perfect for an SM+1 type, a knight with bracers most valuable for a mage or a martial artist, and a guy who never gets hurt with a multi-use healing potion dispenser. I put the stuff in and they chose where it went. And because so much is randomly rolled or selected by what fits, you're really painting yourself into a corner if you are a dual-weilding katar master, or exclusively use a specific kind of axe, or whatnot.
I use tables to determine presence and amount, unless I have a specific idea on either. The dice don't rule my table. Neither do the needs of my player's characters.
- Mailanka has a good post about a persistent problem for GURPS (and heck, it was a problem in Champions, too, back in the day) - the clash between equipment costs and innate advantage costs. Are Battlesuits Fair? Maybe not. Short Bus has one in Gamma Terra, so he's now better than all of us at everything physical. We don't care, but if we had to pay points for these things, how would you price it?
- This Mook post makes Foundry VTT look good. I have nowhere near the time to set things up on it, but it's $50 and sounds like it more natively supports GURPS than Roll20 does. It might be worth the investment, if I can basically offload a lot of the setup to my players (okay, to V~ and J~). $50 is less than $5 each if we split it up, and except for our youngest player I think all of us have $5. Heh. It's worth discussing as a group, I think.
* Natural allies. Sorry, in-joke.
- Noble Knight finally has a copy of Fire in the Lake 2nd printing, but price + shipping is ~$75, and the rules are in "Fair" condition. Ugh. New it's $85 . . . I'll keep looking, I think.
- I'll continue the Laws of Felltower posts next week. They're fun and a good way to codify the play style and how the world/game is shaped by it and shapes it in turn.
- Doug's group turned up a big treasure haul by beating up some fodder monsters I created for DFM1 (rock mites and slugbeasts*). It's a big haul even without them having the Bow of Su.
Linked in it is a post of Kromm's talking about treasure. It's a good description of how I generally do it - I place treasure by what belongs where. I do randomly generate a lot of the total treasure value, but what it is must fit the encounter. Or fit some plausible story of how it got there.
That said, sometimes I do get some odd results using my tables from DF21. Like, say, the giant worms down in Felltower who had treasure, but clearly couldn't have carried any. I decided the area they were in had treasure. They had none, but there were gems to be pulled out of the stone in the area they'd been encountered in. It made sense in-game, and it made sense according to what I rolled. Sometimes I get powerful, intelligent creatures with no treasure . . . but some tough-ish monster elsewhere with way too much. Maybe the powerful, intelligent type stores its treasure and guards it with the tough-ish monsters elsehwere. It's plausible and it fits and helps create a story.
I'm also 100% behind Kromm on the "what fits, not placed to fit" approach. I almost never put things in just because someone might be able to use them. Not never, because I do have an eye towards its useability. But I don't custom-place items for one character or another, or because so-and-so needs a new weapon, or whatever. It's why we've got a swashbuckler wearing armor perfect for an SM+1 type, a knight with bracers most valuable for a mage or a martial artist, and a guy who never gets hurt with a multi-use healing potion dispenser. I put the stuff in and they chose where it went. And because so much is randomly rolled or selected by what fits, you're really painting yourself into a corner if you are a dual-weilding katar master, or exclusively use a specific kind of axe, or whatnot.
I use tables to determine presence and amount, unless I have a specific idea on either. The dice don't rule my table. Neither do the needs of my player's characters.
- Mailanka has a good post about a persistent problem for GURPS (and heck, it was a problem in Champions, too, back in the day) - the clash between equipment costs and innate advantage costs. Are Battlesuits Fair? Maybe not. Short Bus has one in Gamma Terra, so he's now better than all of us at everything physical. We don't care, but if we had to pay points for these things, how would you price it?
- This Mook post makes Foundry VTT look good. I have nowhere near the time to set things up on it, but it's $50 and sounds like it more natively supports GURPS than Roll20 does. It might be worth the investment, if I can basically offload a lot of the setup to my players (okay, to V~ and J~). $50 is less than $5 each if we split it up, and except for our youngest player I think all of us have $5. Heh. It's worth discussing as a group, I think.
* Natural allies. Sorry, in-joke.
Wednesday, December 16, 2020
The Laws of Felltower - Part I, Treasure & Monsters
Some things are basically the laws and rules of the universe for Felltower.
They're not in-world rules but they do describe how the world works.
Monsters Replenish Faster than Loot
Loot is the name of the game in Felltower. The dungeons are rich with treasure, but are also monster infested and trap encrusted. As treasure is taken out, it is sometimes replenished by new visitors bringing in loot as they come in. Others find it a convenient place to stash what they've found.
But it's at a fraction of the pace of the replenishment of monsters. Nature, and Felltower, and GMs, abhor a vaccum. As the PCs clear out areas of fierce creatures, lesser creatures will be able to roam further. Vermin that served as prey - or just sport - for the fiercer types will spread. As monsters that serve as a buffer between territories of other monsters get killed off, conflicts will arise that cause monsters to move or reinforce areas themselves. Monsters will breed - and ones that have been kept out, pared back, or otherwise held at bay by intelligent types will multiply once the intelligent types have been wiped out.
In other words, monsters multiply.
Treasure, though, does not.
The game requires that you outpace the replenishment of monsters if you want get more loot. You can explore and re-explore level 1, and always find things to fight . . . but they're mostly time and resource killers. The dungeon always beckons you deeper if you want more loot. It's less and less profitable to explore the "cleared" areas. Yet is never really, truly safe to explore the "cleared" areas.
They're not in-world rules but they do describe how the world works.
Monsters Replenish Faster than Loot
Loot is the name of the game in Felltower. The dungeons are rich with treasure, but are also monster infested and trap encrusted. As treasure is taken out, it is sometimes replenished by new visitors bringing in loot as they come in. Others find it a convenient place to stash what they've found.
But it's at a fraction of the pace of the replenishment of monsters. Nature, and Felltower, and GMs, abhor a vaccum. As the PCs clear out areas of fierce creatures, lesser creatures will be able to roam further. Vermin that served as prey - or just sport - for the fiercer types will spread. As monsters that serve as a buffer between territories of other monsters get killed off, conflicts will arise that cause monsters to move or reinforce areas themselves. Monsters will breed - and ones that have been kept out, pared back, or otherwise held at bay by intelligent types will multiply once the intelligent types have been wiped out.
In other words, monsters multiply.
Treasure, though, does not.
The game requires that you outpace the replenishment of monsters if you want get more loot. You can explore and re-explore level 1, and always find things to fight . . . but they're mostly time and resource killers. The dungeon always beckons you deeper if you want more loot. It's less and less profitable to explore the "cleared" areas. Yet is never really, truly safe to explore the "cleared" areas.
Friday, November 27, 2020
Friday Links 10/27/2020
This will be short today, as I've been having some computer issues and chose to solve them tonight . . . so I have no time to post. I'd blamed Windows 10 except it's working fine on 2 of my 3 machines, and badly on another.*
- These Japanese B/X D&D covers are really very Japanese and very anime. I don't think I've seen them before, or shared them if I had. It strongly resembles that Wizardry anime, ne?
- Dragon body parts as loot. Way ahead of you there, although even I was late compared to the first . . . I recall people coveting dragon-scale armor back in my elementary school AD&D days.
- I passed on every single sale this year for Black Friday. The only thing I was eyeing was Fire in the Lake and the two places I was looking, the price went UP on Black Friday. Nevermind.
* Basically, explorer.exe keeps crashing, it locks up when I click on "Open With," it frequently goes extremely slowly, and icons and images show blank very frequently. Even a full system reset was to no avail. It reset fine, and then within 45 minutes of that, while I was slowly trying to build my apps back out, it started again. I'm trying System Restore now but I do not hold out any hope as I suspect an update is clashing with something else on my system, and I can't tell which one. Suggestions on fixes are welcome but I may have tried it already, as I tried everything I could find at least twice each before going for a soul-destroying "reset."
- These Japanese B/X D&D covers are really very Japanese and very anime. I don't think I've seen them before, or shared them if I had. It strongly resembles that Wizardry anime, ne?
- Dragon body parts as loot. Way ahead of you there, although even I was late compared to the first . . . I recall people coveting dragon-scale armor back in my elementary school AD&D days.
- I passed on every single sale this year for Black Friday. The only thing I was eyeing was Fire in the Lake and the two places I was looking, the price went UP on Black Friday. Nevermind.
* Basically, explorer.exe keeps crashing, it locks up when I click on "Open With," it frequently goes extremely slowly, and icons and images show blank very frequently. Even a full system reset was to no avail. It reset fine, and then within 45 minutes of that, while I was slowly trying to build my apps back out, it started again. I'm trying System Restore now but I do not hold out any hope as I suspect an update is clashing with something else on my system, and I can't tell which one. Suggestions on fixes are welcome but I may have tried it already, as I tried everything I could find at least twice each before going for a soul-destroying "reset."
Wednesday, October 14, 2020
Gold Coin sizes
How big is my gold coin?
It's a question that dates back pretty far in gaming, not the least of which is because D&D came along with 10 gold coins to the pound. A nice, heft, 1.6 oz hunk of gold that you expected to find, and dispose of, in the thousands.
But how big are they?
There was an article in Dragon Magazine, issue #80, which took a look at it.
"How Many Coins in My Coffer?" by David F. Godwin
In that article, the author came up with this for AD&D gold coins:
I also recently stumbled across this chart:
Gold Coin Size Chart
I'm not sure how accurate it is for real-world use, but it could be useful for gaming. There are a lot of coin sizes each with gold purity, weight in ounces and grams, diameter, and thickness. It's probably not too hard to find a coin of the same size, and something of the same weight, for a chance to see and feel the size of the coins in your game.
Felltower's gold coins are 250/pound, which makes them fairly small - 0.064 ounces, and probably ~14mm diameter and 1.4mm thick. See, I probably should have gone for 50/pound like I've thought in retrospect.
It's a question that dates back pretty far in gaming, not the least of which is because D&D came along with 10 gold coins to the pound. A nice, heft, 1.6 oz hunk of gold that you expected to find, and dispose of, in the thousands.
But how big are they?
There was an article in Dragon Magazine, issue #80, which took a look at it.
"How Many Coins in My Coffer?" by David F. Godwin
In that article, the author came up with this for AD&D gold coins:
Weight: 0.1 lb. = 1.6 ounces = 45.36 grams
Diameter: 1 1/2" = 3.81 cm
Thickness: 0.1" = 0.254 cm = 2.54 mm
Volume: 0.177 cubic inch = 2.9 cc
Specific gravity: 15.66
I also recently stumbled across this chart:
Gold Coin Size Chart
I'm not sure how accurate it is for real-world use, but it could be useful for gaming. There are a lot of coin sizes each with gold purity, weight in ounces and grams, diameter, and thickness. It's probably not too hard to find a coin of the same size, and something of the same weight, for a chance to see and feel the size of the coins in your game.
Felltower's gold coins are 250/pound, which makes them fairly small - 0.064 ounces, and probably ~14mm diameter and 1.4mm thick. See, I probably should have gone for 50/pound like I've thought in retrospect.
Thursday, September 24, 2020
Might & Magic I magic items in GURPS DF
The magic items in Might & Magic I are more interesting than they seem at first glance. For example, you can have a Staff +1 or a Staff +2. Easy comparison, right? Staff +2 is better as it has better "to hit" and damage. But the Staff +1 gives a +1 to Intellect, the Staff +2 gives a +2 to Luck. For a wizard, that +1 to Intellect means more magical power, while a +2 to Luck is just a nice bonus to saving throws. You might want one or the other, but it's not as clear cut as "+2 beats +1.
I am always a fan of items with additional effects or tradeoffs.
I'm also a fan of stealing ideas from video games, such as item sets (see DFT3, p. 5), although the idea of items bits with power that have more as a whole goes at least back to the Rod of Seven Parts in the AD&D DUNGEONMASTERS GUIDE.
One of the PCs in my game has a "Belt of Power" - I think he's written it down as a "Belt of Might." It's an item easy enough to make with GURPS Magic, but the reason for it is that I loved finding those in Might & Magic I back in the day.
As I've been playing the game, I found a few more items I thought would make good Dungeon Fantasy magic items.
Elemental Shield
Elemental shields come in several varieties - fire, electricity, cold, or acid. They are medium shields with Deflect +2, but when held ready provide an additional 10 DR against attacks inflicting using the same type as the shield. The shield itself will take no damage from that damage type.
Smelling Salts
A crystal vial full of strongly-smelling vapors, which, when properly mixed and released, are especially effective at waking people up. When held and opened (which takes one second), it release the vapors. Allows all within a 2-yard radius of the user a roll at HT+5 to wake up - at -3 if unconcious from injury, -6 if drugged. Has no effect on magical effects that are not stictly "sleeping," such as Suspended Animation or Daze. The vial is not a grenade, however, and smashing it is not terribly effective - if it does break, it usually doesn't mix very efficiently and it will work at reduced effect. The HT roll will be at HT-2, not HT+5. Has no effect on victims with Doesn't Breathe or No Sense of Smell/Taste.
0.5 lbs, $100.
Staff of Curing Poison
Casts Instant Neutralize Poison with no chance of failure on a subject when the bearer touches them and wills it so. Requires Power Investiture or Magery, but also requires the bearer to be basically good (GM's call on what counts - usually one or more of Honesty, Sense of Duty (Good Entities), or Intolerance ("Evil" religions) and no negative traits.) Once per subject per day. The bearer is also immune to poison while holding the staff ready. If used in combat, treat it as a normal quarterstaff with Puissance +2.
Those three items are a good start, I think, on the fun that Might & Magic I has to offer to a DF game. I didn't bother with costs, but it's possible to price these out if you intend to allow them to be on the market or sold.
I am always a fan of items with additional effects or tradeoffs.
I'm also a fan of stealing ideas from video games, such as item sets (see DFT3, p. 5), although the idea of items bits with power that have more as a whole goes at least back to the Rod of Seven Parts in the AD&D DUNGEONMASTERS GUIDE.
One of the PCs in my game has a "Belt of Power" - I think he's written it down as a "Belt of Might." It's an item easy enough to make with GURPS Magic, but the reason for it is that I loved finding those in Might & Magic I back in the day.
As I've been playing the game, I found a few more items I thought would make good Dungeon Fantasy magic items.
Elemental Shield
Elemental shields come in several varieties - fire, electricity, cold, or acid. They are medium shields with Deflect +2, but when held ready provide an additional 10 DR against attacks inflicting using the same type as the shield. The shield itself will take no damage from that damage type.
Smelling Salts
A crystal vial full of strongly-smelling vapors, which, when properly mixed and released, are especially effective at waking people up. When held and opened (which takes one second), it release the vapors. Allows all within a 2-yard radius of the user a roll at HT+5 to wake up - at -3 if unconcious from injury, -6 if drugged. Has no effect on magical effects that are not stictly "sleeping," such as Suspended Animation or Daze. The vial is not a grenade, however, and smashing it is not terribly effective - if it does break, it usually doesn't mix very efficiently and it will work at reduced effect. The HT roll will be at HT-2, not HT+5. Has no effect on victims with Doesn't Breathe or No Sense of Smell/Taste.
0.5 lbs, $100.
Staff of Curing Poison
Casts Instant Neutralize Poison with no chance of failure on a subject when the bearer touches them and wills it so. Requires Power Investiture or Magery, but also requires the bearer to be basically good (GM's call on what counts - usually one or more of Honesty, Sense of Duty (Good Entities), or Intolerance ("Evil" religions) and no negative traits.) Once per subject per day. The bearer is also immune to poison while holding the staff ready. If used in combat, treat it as a normal quarterstaff with Puissance +2.
Those three items are a good start, I think, on the fun that Might & Magic I has to offer to a DF game. I didn't bother with costs, but it's possible to price these out if you intend to allow them to be on the market or sold.
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