Where is the loot in Felltower from?

The delvers in my Felltower campaign have been fairly hit and miss with loot. Sessions with a lot of loot, sessions with moderate amounts of loot, and numbers without any loot.

Still, characters have generally steadily climbed up the XP ranks as the required loot hadn't really been that high, often by some combination of moderate loot, sold equipment and magic items, and so on. So much so that I recall someone specially saying something about "farming orcs for XP" - going to fight and kill orcs because, hey, every 4th or 5th one has a good-quality broadsword, that's $240 each one, plus the rest have a mix of axes ($16), spears ($16), bows ($40-80), and armor, plus some actual coinage on each one.

That's an implicit criticism of the lack of look in Felltower and the associated areas. I decided to give it a look from this side of the screen.

When I first launched the campaign I didn't put in enough loot. I went through and added more, and then did another pass or so to add more. I created loot tables that reflect how much cash value a given pile of loot should have - you can see them in DF21.

From my side of the screen, in order of total value:

- jewelry/gems/coinage (all saleable at 100% of stated value in my game, everything else is subject to the usual rules.)

- magic items

- luxuries (tapestries, furniture, paintings, wine, etc.)

- weapons and armor

- scrap & monster body parts

I think one of my players can probably run numbers on what the PCs actually took home. I am curious if it matches the above.

For so many delves, it's been more like this:

- sold magic items

- weapons and armor

- scrap & monster body parts

- coinage

- luxuries

So much so that my players tend to look at plain furnishings, wall decorations, random geological formations, wandering monster body parts*, etc. as loot. If I put a box of hardtack somewhere, I sure as heck better know how much it weighs, how big it is, and how valuable it is as the players will likely have their delvers haul it back as loot.

Part of this post is me wondering what I see on my side vs. the players see on their side. The other part is to reiterate that Felltower isn't really designed as a stingy game. It's a lethal game. If you try to play it to avoid the danger, yeah, it'll be stingy as the real loot is protected by monsters, traps, and concealment. But I will say there is a lot of it where I did place it. A while back we had a discussion of how I distribute the treasure out, and in general the players liked the way it's spread (or actually not spread) throughout the dungeon.

It's just that I see the coins and jewelry as the bulk of the value, the magic items next (assuming you sell them), luxuries next, and then everything else tapers off from there down to minimal value. It seems like the delvers perceive it as magic items, weapons and armor, etc. and then coinage and luxuries down at the bottom. I think that can color the organization of delves, too - if you think the money is in broadswords and helmets, selling off magic items you don't need, and monster bits with a sprinkling of loot, what kind of things are you going to aim for? You're going to look for fights - and refuse to avoid them if they even have a chance at loot - instead of focusing purely on finding the big raw loot payoffs. Even trying to find gold and silver with Seek Earth only results in the closest, not the biggest, so you're no more likely to find the 100,000 coin hoard than the 1 sp some guy has tucked in his boot for luck.

I'll have to sit down and think more on how I can make the game more find-the-treasure centric and less realize-the-value-of-your-kills centric.

* Even of monsters not considered valueable. We've been through this so many times I made up rules for it. Yes, you can see deer bits and cups of ooze or whatever but if a choice body part of a rare monster is only $100-200, you're not going to get more than piddling pocket change. It's why you are delving and not killing squirrels to sell the tails to Mepps.

DF Felltower: Loot Thresholds Change

We're officially switched from the "hybrid" method for loot thresholds to the one described in DF21.

So instead of this:

Method 3

Required Profit (Tiered, 100, then 50 point spread)
Up to 249 Points: $100 each (1/5 Struggling)
250-349 Points: $200 each (1/5 Average)
350-399 Points: $400 each (1/5 Comfortable)
400-449 Points: $1000 each (1/5 Wealthy)
450-499 Points: $4000 (1/5 Very Wealthy)
500+ Points: $20,000 each (1/5 of Filthy Rich)
Every Additional 100 Points: x10

. . . we're using this:

Method 2 (aka the rules that made it into DF21)

Required Profit (50 point spread)
Up to 249 Points: $100 each (1/5 Struggling)
250-299 Points: $200 each (1/5 Average)
300-349 Points: $400 each (1/5 Comfortable)
350-399 Points: $1000 each (1/5 Wealthy)
400-449 Points: $4000 (1/5 Very Wealthy)
450+ Points: $20,000 each (1/5 of Filthy Rich)
Every additional 50 points: x10

This does mean the PCs need to take home more loot. Very suddenly, the big boys will need more loot.

Yes, yes indeed.

I have been putting a lot of loot in the dungeon. I've gone back multiple times and upped it. There is a lot. The PCs haven't been able to track down so much of it.

So be it.

I'm just tired of 325-350 point delvers taking home $200 and getting 4 xp for it. They could literally explore one new room, and each kill one sword-armed orc and sell his sword and shield at 40% and get 5 xp. 20 delves, 20 rooms, 20 orcs, and 100 xp. Eh. That's my fault. So is 400-449 point PCs taking home $200 and getting 2 xp a session. 449 point guys solo killing one orc and heading home with his gear shouldn't be getting any XP, nevermind 2 points for loot.

I can see the point of players who have trouble locating loot. But they've spent a good chunk of time not being very effective at finding loot, and a fair bit of time generating 5 xp from searching 1-2 new places and divvying up loot finely so most or all of the PCs get 4 xp for loot from selling scrap, assorted weapons taken from fodder foes, and a few bits and bobs from here and there. And that's from PCs routinely spending huge amounts of resources to get that loot, and then divvying it up to maximize XP.

I'm okay with unequal loot distributions, but it's annoying just how often a miserably poor delve is "good enough" for guys with 70, 80, 90 xp over starting.

I had briefly considered saying loot couldn't be unequally distributed, but it's not really the issue. The issue is being able to get full xp for a session for getting a disappointing amount of money for a disappointing amount of scrounged loot. PCs shouldn't routinely be hauling home scrap, selling random old weapons, and taking home pocket change and turning it into significant permanent power gains.

Will you add more loot? Will I be adding more loot? Not really. I already put in a lot - but the PC's habits have been built around minimizing risk while maximizing the ability to take home just enough loot. So be that, too . . . just that this means $20K for the really high point PCs and $5K for them to even get 2 xp. There is a lot of loot to be found, and while it's not necessarily easy to be found it's out there and it is known . . . but avoided, because it's risky. This is yet another push towards risk. The game is really geared to tactical caution and strategic risk-taking, but it's played wuth tactical risk-taking and strategic caution. This may help.

How did your players react when you discussed this? We didn't. I just up and decided this. I'd been thinking I mis-set the XP thresholds for years, now, and I finally made the decision.

Any other big ideas? Maybe. It might be interesting to do XP for loot based on 3 sub-tiers. Instead of 4 xp for full loot and 2 xp for 20%-99% of that, 0 below that, you could do 4 xp for meeting your threshold, 2 xp for meeting the next threshold down (ranging from 1/2 to 1/5 of your level), and 1 xp for the level below that. So 250 point guys could get 4 for $200, 2 for $100-199, 1 for $1-99. 450 point guys would be 4 for $20K, 2 for $4K, 1 for $1K. That one I will put up to the group.

Something like that couples really well with awarding XP based on the total, not the split, too - but I don't want high-point delvers essentially dragged down by bringing along henchmen or lower-point PCs. That would bother me even more than the split-to-the-single-dollar handouts my players do to maximize the xp gained by the group.

Moriarty passed away

I was going to post something else, but Gavin "Moriarty" MacLeod passed away. Anything "Kelly's Heroes" is on-topic for this blog.

Crap!

Here he is:

I do need to make time to assemble and paint my Oddball Sherman.

Random Thoughts & Links for 5/28/21

Just a few thoughts before I go finish my manuscript.

- I was looking at the pricing for spellstones that duplicate potions . . . ones that slipped my notice. Like an Invisibility spelltone for $400, when an Invisibility potion costs $2,450. Sure, the potion losts 1dx10 minutes, and the spellstone 1 minute. But no one buys an Invisibility spellstone for anything but ephemeral combat advantage or protection, and no one drinks an Invisibility potion for long-term exploration, either. So the spellstone is very likely underpriced.

If you had the elixir, you could sell it for $2450 x 40% = $980, which nets you 2 spellstones and $180. A wealthy delver with a solid Merchant skill can turn it into 6 spellstones, and that's definitely more useful.

I'm looking at others - some seem like economic issues (one is underpriced vis-a-vis the other), others don't. Haste, Strength, Wisdom, and a few others need side-by-side comparisons. I should have just said no to special-order spellstones. It's been a nonstop headache . . . and the PCs depend on them to win fights, and so the boss fights tend to be harder because the foes need to be able to counter such items to be relevant, which only pushes the arms race of getting them.

Advice to new DF GMs - don't allow people to just buy spellstones, potions, etc. at whim. Just don't. The game becomes about them.

- Here is a nice look at some new advantages in Delvers to Grow.

- A look at "Cleave."

- Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord is a brutal, brutal game to start. I started laughing when I was reading about his high-stat, well-equipped badass. Yeah, Wizardry rips through delvers like crazy. You need to just gut it out, get a few guys up levels, and then use them to support up the guys with potential. And survivors have potential all on their own. It's a tough, unforgiving game.

GURPS writing update

My solo GURPS book is almost done.

I'm basically moving things around at this point before I submit it for review prior to official submission.

My hints?

It's connected to stuff from Felltower.

It's Dungeon Fantasy.

It's not that long - think Megadungeons more than Martial Arts.

It's a topic I think GURPS hasn't really given sufficient wordcount to for fantasy gaming.

I'm excited to see it hit "print."

The Giant Brothers

The PCs tangled with a pair of giant brothers in our most recent session.

It did not go particularly well for either side.

The giants ended up blinded, fleeing, with their dire wolves slain and their weapons and armor abandoned.

The PCs ended up with a dismembered and dead cleric, a dead apprentice ally, their boats smashed, and a lot of magic resources expended - and had to spend $30,000 in town to bring back their slain from the dead.

Both sides experienced what might be called a Pyrrhic victory - another victory at that cost might break either side.

How did two giants hang with a bunch of delvers backed by a pile of magical consumables?

I built the giants as experienced adventurers, really, who had taken their home by violence force against the original inhabitants, and hunted and slew as they saw fit.

So I made them the kind of guys, skill and advantage-wise, that could do that in a world where:

- there are archers and swordsmen who can take your eyes out casually,

- foes with trememndously high skill aren't terribly usual,

- and access to magic is a prerequisite to success.

So the giants have Luck. They seem to have some access to magic, and use it. They are wiley and experienced, and fight as if their opponents are lethal foes bent on killing them and as if those opponents have earned the gear they have.* They're used to people trying to defense-swamp them after a Feint, a typical combat move. They have skill and know how to use Rapid Strike, Beat, and flanking to their advantage. They're not afraid to cut and run when the odds make it clear that death will follow sticking around. They, like PCs, deal with other people's stuff like spiteful wolverines. It amused me that the PCs were busy smashing things the giants used to "deny them the assets" and the giants smashed the PC's boats and denied them their transport home. Also that the PCs used buffs, potions, and teamwork and the giants did, too.

Yeah, it was a hard fight. These guys are boss monsters individually, each capable of fighting multiple PCs. Obviously they did better as a pair against a half-dozen delvers. Even so, they couldn't hang forever, and the usual swings of dice luck in a combat told for them in both directions. Some critical misses (and critical defenses) against them, one critical defense that cause Wyatt to drop his weapon . . . but it was the 2nd in a combat of left/right/left/left and so the right sword was dropped as the left unaffected, and so on. Plus buffed airborne Wyatt is extremely dangerous, and in GURPS DF smothering a foe with multiple strikes is the way to go, unless the opponent has a high Dodge. If so, it's just crit-fishing (i.e. hoping for a critical hit by choosing a 16+ to hit). They did okay all told, and I'm a bit surprised the PCs didn't do better.

* The PCs are very well equipped. Most of their magical gear is Ornate, they wear epic plate (ornate), Wyatt has a clearly special corselet, Galen carries a dragonhorn bow and wear's thieves' mail, Crogar has a well-made axe, Galen shoots Cornucopia arrows, etc. It's blindingly obvious this not a rag-tag group of wannabes, but a hard core group of wealthy delvers.

Delvers to Grow + Crypt of Krysuvik - under 12 hours!

Only about 12 hours left in this one:



You can get an excellent book on low-powered DFRPG delvers, with some things you'll regret missing . . . and a cheap add-on of an adventure that Marshall "Aldwyn" LaPira co-wrote with me.

DO IT!