I was thinking back about some old posts over on No School Grognard, especially this one:
Castle of Horrors Session 7
It features a "mook rush" that doesn't have much of an effect.
That's been my general experience with mook rushes in dungeon fantasy style games: although the maneuver economy implies that three to one odds should be good for the mooks, the mechanics of actually getting all their units into place and attacking at the same time never quite work. Mooks in the front line get killed too fast, and their replacements end up with the unviable options of Move (and not attack) or Move & Attack (and miss) or use some kind of Attack maneuver with a Step of 2+, which exposes them to deadly counterattack on the next turn, thus repeating the cycle. All of which lets the PCs heroically stand against a tide of mooks pretty successfully, as long as the PCs stay together in a mostly anchored line so the mooks can't envelope them.
In a game like AD&D, if the mooks get in some lucky shots, they get in some lucky shots. Even "hits on a natural 20" means 1 in 20 mooks deal their damage to a PC. That adds up, since healing is a finite resource. PCs can be coaxed into using finite magical resources to destroy the mooks, too. In a tournament-style game, one-shot, or a megadungeon delve, rest simply isn't going to happen. Lost HP means expended healing spells, and that means a finite resource is consumed or lessened.
In GURPS, that's not really the case. It takes more like a 3 or 4 to get in a PC, and that can be mitigated with Bless if you allow it and Luck in all other cases. It takes a lot of lucky blows to hit a PC, then the strike needs to penetrate DR, and then and only then are resources consumed . . . perhaps. Most of the time, it just gives the PCs some FP loss, if that, and some EP usage they can recover easily. In a DF game, defenses can be so high, DR so solid, and damage inflicted so terrible that mooks just really waste the mooks, not the PCs. They choke the battlefield and provide bad footing for enemies trying to follow up on the effect of the mooks.
They aren't useless, but a "mook rush" generally isn't a serious threat in GURPS DF. You can maximize what they do, but my experience is that they aren't really that threatening.
Surprise. If the mooks can surprise the PCs the they are a problem. They can close and surround before the PCs can kill them.
ReplyDeleteTrue example.
Horde (10) of doomchildren appears
Surprises PCs
PCs recover from surprise.
Horde moves up to engage PCs
All out attacks
Most PCs still defend or their DR protects them.
First hit on PC
Before I even roll for damage
Player rage quits*.
* Actually I had to ask him to leave as he complained too much about the difficulty that I couldn't continue the session.
Now Doomchildren arent really mooks in hindsight they were probably tough, but I really expected the ten of them to go down in two turns.
Doomchildren aren't fodder, they're living fireballs with lethal melee weapon skills. More like kamikaze airplanes than mooks, in my experience.
DeleteSure. Though I will note they only hit here because the PC turned their back to them. So weapon skill wasn't a factor. Nor was damage as I never go to roll.
Deletereach and/or ranged attacks can also be scary.
ReplyDeleteTwenty undead skeletons firing bodkin point arrows at point blank range into a group of PCs is pretty scary
True, but really, that's scary for like 1 second before they're in melee with no significant defenses. You can make them potentially dangerous, but waves of fodder don't really wear down DF characters like they would in other games, or other power levels, IME.
Delete60 Skeleton Archers? Firing in volleys of 20?
DeleteBacked up with a trap/spell that only targets the living in their hexes?
Well, if you keep ratcheting it up, and adding more layers of complication, they'll be more lethal. But they'll always be inherently less dangerous in GURPS than in other systems, and there weaknesses are much more easily negated. Add "the PCs cast Missile Shield" and that back to just the danger of the spell. GMs really need to stay aware of the limitations of using masses of fodder.
DeleteSeems reasonable, if heroic PCs are in an anchored line vs weak mooks.
ReplyDeleteHoratio & co on the bridge.
If mooks can overwhelm surrounded characters, that sounds as if the system is working well for heroic fantasy.
Whether PCs can be surrounded is a simple formula. Width of Hallway vs Number of PCs you can wedge in the frontline
ReplyDeleteYes. In a big open space, sufficient fodder can surround PCs, if they can survive. They can overrun PCs, too, as Kyle Norton notes.
Delete2 hex hallway, 1 PC meatball etc
DeleteI have found that the key to a mob threatening players is to utilize close combat to their disadvantage. Use the first Monster to force retreat bonus points if the player manages to down the monster in that first rush to clear the lane for another monster land on the same player this turn. Are you using optional martial arts rules allowing people to parry the first turn something moves into their space without retreating? I find that does make it harder to properly swarm.
ReplyDeleteOverrunning can work, I've done it (and even forced a superior force to use a Wish to escape it.) But it still needs to be coupled with foes that can usefully harm the PCs. It's too easy to recover from fodder attacks when and if you can't fully negate or mitigate their harm. It's probably a feature of DF, with its power level, but it's something a GM planning needs to consider.
DeleteThe fodder can lock people into C where they are useless while the other fodder caper merrily into the squishy underbelly of the PCs line
DeleteIn open field circumstances, sure. But A, it's not easier to evade when you're going through a hex with two figures in it than it is when there is one, and B, it's hard to "lock" people into C. And they're not even that useless there - and far, far from useless if you use the rules for long weapons on close combat in GURPS Martial Arts. Even without them, it's a hard task against DF-grade foes. I'm not saying you can't swamp a PC line, but I think you're making it sound more simple than it actually is.
DeleteThey do the monster two step. Monster 1 dashes in to attack in C and force a retreat. Monster 2 then just goes and hangs in C as the PC can't retreat. If monsters, walls, or other party members clog the hexes he can step back to its C time. And the only hex a PC actually stops monsters traveling through is the hex he's physically standing in. A 2 hex wide hallway with a PC occupying one of the hexes the monsters treat the other hex like the autobahn. That is one reason Create Earth has been so huge in Kyle's game as to prevent tides of enemies being brought to bear. I have many unpleasant memories of being locked in C and of enemies breaking free of our front line and making a beeline for the squishy sidekicks like a receiver heading for the end zone
DeleteWe have almost no situations with 1 PC blocking a 2-hex wide corridor. We get two, or they don't consider it blocked. And like I said, PCs in my games are weakened but not helpless due to being in Close Combat.
DeleteI understand, that sounds like a factor of HP and damage in other sustems vs GURPS.
ReplyDeleteGURPS though has the whole I get hit for 3 damage to skull, fail stun check, get knocked down and out of fight.
So if fodder can potentially do that one point of damage you can't just leave them wailing away on you while you check off your HP.
True, but my point is, they generally don't do that damage. Not even that one point. And if they do, and if you roll badly, most DF characters will be able to mitigate or eliminate the effects.
DeleteThey aren't harmless. But if 1 fodder isn't a threat, ratcheting the numbers up won't matter as much as it might seem. GMs need to deploy them with thought if they're going to be a threat the PCs need to consider.
Peshkali or Kyle's new Lava golem or other foes who churn a lot of attacks can hurt when 2-4 of them can tag team
DeleteThey aren't fodder!
DeleteYeah, I'm talking fodder here. Worthy or better foes using numbers are just being more lethal, it doesn't make them fodder or require a "mook rush." Double teaming foes is always a good idea in GURPS, unless they're so weak you are wasting effort.
DeleteWell, non fodder but still trying to defeat PCs through numbers
ReplyDelete