What does it take to remove a Vow?
Generally in my DF Felltower campaign, I allow people to change their quirks and disadvantages around to suit how the character actually plays at the table.
Generally.
I make a few exceptions. You can't just willy-nilly remove or swap out a Sense of Duty, any kind of externally-imposed or template-imposed disadvantage, or a physical disadvantage.
I prefer people make the change smooth - better your temper improve and then go away, or your greed get more controlled and eventually become a quirk. Or expand out - your tight-fisted nature may eventually become Miserliness.
Vows fit into a different category than the behavioral traits. You've sworn an oath. In Felltower, this is presumably before the Good God.* If not the Good God, before some other earthly or heavenly or diabolic entity. If it's another earthly entity for a non-evil person, it's likely that the Good God was involved or some other similar power (Nature, say.)
If you swear an oath to never used edged weapons, or never refuse a challenge to combat, or to own no more than can be carried . . . and then you decide, geez, I'm not really feeling it anymore, then what?
You can't really just say your paper man grew out of that. It's a proper oath - a contract between you and (in all likelihood) your god. Even if you don't like it, it's a contract that you must hold up.**
The question I'm stuck on is, how would you end a Vow?
What if you, the player, or the paper man itself, has some reason to think that Vow isn't a good representation of the character/a good oath to keep? What is the in-game method that makes sense without become an oathbreaker? And how is such a path meaningful in a megadungeon/delves-only adventuring approach?
I'm thinking about that. I haven't - yet - hit on something I find satisfactory. So I decided I'd put it up here and see what suggestions I get. I don't know if I'll read one that I like, but it's worth asking as the commenters here often have a very different angle on gaming than I do.
* Who, keep in mind, isn't an abstract concept you believe in, but a real being capable of granting miraculous abilities and smiting foes, albeit largely through other angencies.
** I've had it argued that Sense of Duty, Vow, etc. aren't suicide pacts, but in some cases they might amount to one. If you've sworn an oath not to use weapons and die in combat when a weapon could have saved you . . . or accept a challenge to fight against a foe you can't beat (knowingly or unknowingly) . . . or swear an oath to silence and must either call for help or fight alone . . . you can get killed. Your Vow in no way comes with an "unless I'd die" escape clause. It's what makes it a real disadvantage and not a Quirk. "Use no edged weapons unless I have to" or "Silence except if I really need to say something" or "Never refuse a challenge to combat that I think I can win" are probably Quirks at best. The first two might be - the third is just about every delver, ever, and restricts no one from anything. It's not even usual enough to be remarkable.
It gets replaced by an equivalently costed disadvantage that confers a reaction penalty to adherents of whomever you swore the oath before. Something like "Reputation: Oathbreaker". Could make getting favors at the church tricky!
ReplyDeleteIt sure would. Finding a good in-game way to be released of a Vow is probably better. I'm really up in the air on what that is.
DeleteWhat would you impose as consequences to breaking Vows, though? Would you allow someone who had enough points on hand to buy it off in the middle of a combat if it meant he could save his bacon?
ReplyDeleteThe above thought process applies equally to buying it off with points, and replacing it with other disadvantages. What in-game justification makes sense for, "I don't have that Vow anymore" - that's what I'm trying to figure out makes sense.
DeleteNo one is allowed to spend points during the middle of combat with the exception of Knights buying weapon skills - an explicit benefit of being a Knight. So that's a non-issue.
I think any self-imposed disad like this ought to be a matter of the player just deciding to let go of it. And if he doesn't have the CP to buy off the disad - or replace it (Vow replaced by Bad Reputation, for example, or Chronic Depression or some other low self-esteem result of breaking the vow) - then all his earned CP go toward paying off the disad, maybe with some interest (say, the next 18 CP never materialize because he abandoned a 15-point Vow). Eventually the GM gives him some CP for a session, after he's successfully abandoned his hangup.
ReplyDeleteGenerally, it's just up to the PC, but I want some explanation. With a Vow, it's tricky - it's like buying off a Reputation . . . what makes you suddenly not have it any more? I need some kind of explanation in-game to make the out-of-game change make sense.
DeleteI like the swap in, but not the interest . . . that makes certain disads a worse choice because they cost more to buy off or replace than they give back. "Can't remove" is actually less unhappy for my players than "Can remove at extra cost in XP."
I would only charge the interest if the PC was suddenly like, yeah, I'm not doing this anymore - without having the CP to cover the cost. The extra CP would be for "bad roleplaying" while paying off the point debt. If they could pay to just drop the disads, I think, let 'em. Tons of people are like, "I think I'm not going to go to church anymore," every day. And then they just stop going to church. I think Vows are probably like that. One day, you go: what was I thinking? I'm eating this cheeseburger!
DeleteYou could just retroactively declare the vow had an escape clause: "It's been ten years! My penance is over!" or "Well, by the Good God's grace I've killed 200 orcs. Time to renegotiate."
ReplyDeleteIf the player gave me a good reason why the PC would change their mind, such as a traumatic near-death experience - theirs or a friends - that resulted from their "no weapons" vow, I would allow them to change the character. Options include swapping to another vow, perhaps, or simply saying, "that was foolish of me, and I see the error of my ways". If they did it more than once, then that would be poor playing, and I would say no, but sometimes life makes a theist out of an atheist, and vice versa.
ReplyDeleteIf Vow is a contract between person and the Good God, then maybe (some) priests of the Good God can release people from their Vows? They should be able to understand, how angry would be the Good God about this case and how decrease his anger, and ask for suitable quest, donation or something else.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, druids can release people from Vows to Nature and so on.
At least, this is how things were done in Middle Ages, to my knowledge.
"It's a proper oath - a contract between you and (in all likelihood) your god. Even if you don't like it, it's a contract that you must hold up."
ReplyDeleteIs this just something you've imposed for your setting? Because I've never taken Vow to be a 'contract' between two entities. It certainly can be, a Holy Warrior can use a Vow as part of the Profession's 'Power' Disads, but outside Pact style Vows (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Holy Warrior, Martial Artist, Psi, Wizard) I don't see how a Swashbuckler's Vow to 'Never refuse a duel" or a Knight's Vow to "Own no more than can carry" is more than a self-imposed imposed behavior, those Professions don't have Power Traits that impose such a limitation.
Now if someone does make a Pact with Power, sure, that Vow comes with attachments, but otherwise, at worst I impose a Reaction penalty to anyone who was impressed they were keeping up the Vow, a bene to anyone who's happier they dropped the Vow, and let the PC carry on. And if they want to swap out Vows, that's fine as long as it's not some sort of serial Vow swapping (unless they have an OPD Compulsive Vow Maker, but that's a different beasty). Like decide a Vow isn't working for the Character after 5 sessions? Okay, go ahead and change it, but changing it every five or sessions? No... unless that's part of the Power Trait mechanism...
Now I'm imagining a Holy Warrior who has to trek out to [HOLY PLACE] and renew their Vows every [TIME CYCLE] to a deity who is lax about exactly what Vow they swear*.
* As long as it's a campaign legit Vow. Like Vow of Chastity has no place in my //DF// campaigns outside of being a Quirk, and I don't allow Quirks to stand in for Power Trait prereqs.
It might just be my campaign, but if a Vow is essentially a promise to yourself that you can keep or ditch as you feel, I don't think it's worth anything.
DeleteThat a Vow can *also* be part of a power compact doesn't mean that a Vow that isn't one isn't also a contract or promise before, and therefore in the name of, a higher power.
".. if a Vow is essentially a promise to yourself that you can keep or ditch as you feel, I don't think it's worth anything."
DeleteWell, yes. If you're getting points for it, it's clearly supposed to important.
But if a Player is struggling with a Vow* and want to buy it off, I'm generally fine with it unless it's a prereq for a Power Trait. I'm happier if they want to swap for a Disad of a similar nature, a different Vow, perhaps a Sense of Duty, etc. But if they have the points, and I'm allowing PCs to buy off Disads...
* Struggling and not having fun. Frex I'm playing a character with Code of Bushido, who is supposed to be an Assassin (Swashbuckler/Martial Artist), they struggle with the "fight honorably" clauses, but I'm having fun with the struggle. If I weren't having fun I'd have to do a rethink and either find some way to buy down or off Bushido, or get the PC out of the obligation that has them operating as an "assassin" for a 'criminal' House.
If the vow is made to the Church, excommunicated is a good swap out.
ReplyDeleteWell, sure, but what if you don't want to be Excommunicated?
Deleteyou can pay for Forgiven, and no longer be excommunicated.
ReplyDeleteBasic Set: Characters suggests that vows should have some sort of expiration date, or the oath breaker can be required to do some sort of penance.
ReplyDeleteMy own suggestion is that another power takes notice. This can be something malevolent, trying to drive the character away from the Good God. It could be a divine trickster deciding "Here's a mortal who can appreciate deception." It could also be another power simply trying to recruit a character they now see as a free agent.
And last but not least, it's a great opportunity to throw in visions that come at the most inconvenient moments. "Hello, we're calling to let you know your karma's extended warranty is about to expire."