If you missed this post by Christopher Rice . . .
. . . you missed him announcing that his upcoming GURPS book is a DF Denizens book.
Is it Bards?
Is it Druids?
Is it Holy Warriors?
Is it Knights?
Is it Martial Artists?
Is it Scouts?
Is it Thieves?
Is it Wizards?*
* You know, they've got no love. None. None at all. Aside from like 600 spells and lots of open-ended perks and a pile of energy-expanding items and abilities? Oh, wait . . . ;)
I actually have enough material to fill a Denizens book for two others on your list.
ReplyDeleteIt's still waiting to be edited so no idea when it'll come out.
I've got enough for one . . . and ideas for a second. I need to throw in the proposal for one of them soon.
DeleteDoo eet.
DeleteI really should, but it's very hard to commit to a deadline when I'm not sure when my full-time job will restart and bring me back. And what extra hours I'll need to do it.
DeleteInnkeepers. It's about innkeepers.
ReplyDeleteThey only have one book about them, which is criminal.
DeleteProbably *should* be Thieves. They’re just hard to justify in DF as built—difficult to make effective.
ReplyDeleteOh, I disagree. I think there are a few ways to make them effective. It's just that "effective" usually means "as a fighter" for most people, thinking of non-caster types. Not to say they couldn't benefit from a book - Barbarians did.
DeleteSo, I should have clarified. When combat takes up a good portion of many delves (not just in time during the delve but actual time during play), they seemingly have less to do in combat than other supporting characters (e.g., clerics). Backstabbing is very hard (and super risky) in a dungeon environment, as is stealth without darkvision. I suppose in a different style of campaign than Felltower, they can be more effective. It could have be done in Felltower, I think, when the threats on Level One were waiting to be explored. It would be very hard now, I think. Maybe not...
DeleteHaving said that, I've got a DFRPG Half Orc Thief sitting around for a possible delve who has Knife-17, Lockpicking-17, Stealth-17, Brawling-16, Cloak-16, Thrown Weapon (Knife)-16, Acrobatics-15, Search-14, Traps-14, Merchant-13 (among others)...but spent the bulk of his advantage points (after Half-Orc) *and* all five quirk points to get Danger Sense [15]. That guy could be quite useful. But he's still mostly avoiding combat when he can.
Yeah, there's plenty you can do to make Thieves great out of combat. But when "getting the loot" most often requires "getting rid of the guardians", then Thieves really need to have combat capacity as well.
DeleteSo it boils down to either make them Scouts, Rogues, or Martial Artists. At which point, well...
I still think this is a circular argument.
DeleteIf you define utility as ability in combat, characters who don't do combat well aren't useful. And if you take only combat-focused characters and solve everything with violence or the threat of violence, non-combat characters aren't useful. Thus you're defining "useful" as combat, and defining useful in combat as either buffing front-line fighters or capable of being a front-line fighter.
That gets more and more ironic given that my group has nine people now. You can't find a way to carry one character who is neither a front-line fighter or buffing the fighters? You actually have so many front-line fighters that you can't fit them all in two ranks in a hallway some sessions.
Even from the PC side of the screen, it has to be clear by now that there are places in Felltower you simply cannot exploit properly without thief skills. It's blindingly clear from this side of the screen. Adding Lockpicking and using Extra Time on the Swashbuckler is only going to get you so far.
"Adding Lockpicking and using Extra Time on the Swashbuckler is only going to get you so far."
DeleteBut aside from fiendishly difficult Locks and really tricksy and deadly Traps, what is there for a Thief, that no one else can do (IE Wealth, social skills)?
Which is why I like to aim at dungeon parkouring (and enhanced sneaking), and everyone likes to talk about increasing combat effectiveness.
I brought up Lockpicking because it specifically came up in Felltower - Wyatt Sorrel learned it (and has successfully used it. But it's not the only thing the thief does well. Look, I agree the template needs changes - I proposed some. I agree it could use more support. And I think GMs need to make sure to provide challenges that aren't just solvable with brute force and combat. But it's also the case that the thief can provide help simply by doing things other templates can do, but are diluted by doing or hamper with their usual choice of disadvantages.
DeleteAnd be fair, here - you brought up their combat effectiveness as a detriment. Why say that it's a fatal flaw and then not try to fix that? If it's not a fatal flaw, well, yes, I agree. Even in DF, combat shouldn't be the end-all be-all.
These are all fair points. Come to think about it, we could have a thief in lieu of one of our barbarians, knights, or swashbuckler (in the current delve, as we often do, we have two barbarians, two knights, and one swashbuckler).
DeleteIt depends on the game. Not every game is combat heavy even of DF, but in fairness most probably are, so that's not much help. I did try to put some elaborate obstacles in no mana, no sanctity areas.
DeleteIIRC I was using the rules for dissapearing in plain sight from MH because they were slightly better.
If I ran a campaign again (which I wont) I'd probably just put even more 'thief' loot in the dungeon. And not things that a swashbuckler or scout would just take instead.
I'm thinking:
magic weapons that don't do a damage off ST, but are useful for low ST delvers
knives, lots of knives, belts of knives that can be used in some sort of combo, magic throwing knives that can home in on vitals spots, knives of backstabbing and so on
armour that is borderline useless in combat, but enables something else interesting if its worn at all times
"IRC I was using the rules for dissapearing in plain sight from MH because they were slightly better."
DeleteNice... I didn't even know MH had rules for this (I've never given MH the full read). I'n stealing this for my games.
How about all of them? I'd buy all of them. :)
ReplyDeleteSo would I, of course.
DeleteWizards, nobody has written one about Dungeon Fantasy wizards. Except Kromm.
ReplyDeleteI can't think of what Wizards need, though. Different types of wizards might work, but they're mostly differentiated by spells. You can do that with magical styles - and it's been done as you note - but after that, then what? I could think of more perks and Power-Ups for wizards but they already have plenty . . . and since 1 point in a spell gets you yet another tool to spam out as needed in the dungeon, and you have hundreds of them, what do you need to add to that? They're already very broadly capable, very versatile, and very powerful with what's out there now.
DeleteI just don't see what you fill out a book with that's not just going into "splatbook" territory by making them more powerful just because.
Also there are a few things that can be grabbed and applied to Wizards if you want, Summoners (Necromancers, Elementalists) and Magical Styles Dungeon Magic, not to mention all the Perks in Thaumatology Magical Styles. Or as I've said elsewhere, if you're not allowing Scholars as it's own profession you now have that whole template and it's Power-Ups available.
DeleteI think Dungeon Magic suffices as the wizard splatbook.
DeleteI'd like Wizards
ReplyDeleteI really want to see Scouts the most, I like the concept 'dude who hits thing with bow' but really REALLY dislike the very niche execution
Well given the replies its not likely Wizards :)
ReplyDeleteMy main trouble with thieves is why and how did all the locks and traps get there? Who maintains them?
Combat can be supplemented with them as support types, use weapons like bolos, cloaks, and nets that gave a bit of range but aren't typical Scout weapons. Thrown weapons like potion grenades make sense to give to a second line type and the Scout is often more effective with a bow.
It just seems to me a well built thief can add a lot to combat if they want to.
They also have decent IQ at 13 so could work on puzzle and riddle locks or traps. And Per is as good as the Scouts so they can spot trouble.
They're placed by whoever stuck the treasure behind them, and they're maintained by whoever is closing the doors after the PCs leave the dungeon each week. :)
DeleteThe Teamsters Dungeon Union Local #403, they have excellent health insurance and retirement, but they do have to put all the rocks back up...
Deletehttps://www.oglaf.com/gravity-masonry/
(this one is worksafe, but note so very many of the Oglaf comics are not)
ordinary nets, bolas and cloaks are well... pretty ordinary and if they were good then the other templates should just use them in the first place - and they'll likely be more efficient with either weapon master, ST or something else they can do better than the Thief and then when said weapon does't work then they can draw their magic sword and not die when the opponent hits them in retaliation. But I suppose if you give total badass sword +++ and totally servicable magic bolas at least the thief can take the bolas while others argue over the good stuff.
Delete